Потеклото на Албанците

[Lavec]

Пиле, да ти објаснам нешто за Стипчевич, чоекот цел живот посветил на докажување на некои сомнителни тези и останал со празни раце, изгубил труд, време, и на крај ништо, тоа човек може многу да го заболи толку време и труд и ништо на крај па ај ќе склепи некоја книга ќе стави у неа се што може од дотогашните истражувања, ќе ги разубави работите колку да ја издаде книгата и да ги порадуе малку но и да земе некој денар од оние кои порачуваат докази за илирското потекло на шќиптарите.

Значи кај врвот на албанофилската историографија т.е. кај онаа која априори има зацртано задача по секоја цена да докаже нешто недокажливо во текстовите од нивните истражувања ќе сретнеме во основа ова:

“....капата - која не се разликува многу....“ (значи сепак се разликува м.з.).... Значи бидејќи била според “нечие око“ слична на некој си цртеж ќе докажува нешто, ова ли е наука????

“Опченито се мисли....“ (еве како Стипчевич извлекува докази)

“Во 18 век Тунман...“ (тој Тунман е никој и ништо во историската наука, го користат само шизофрените албанофили, побиен е до сега илјадници пати бидејќи тоа што тој го кажува се чисти претпоставки ништо друго).

“Према једним Албанци су потекли од Трачане, према другим од Дакомезијанцима и тн“ (ејјјј шо е ова бе, наука или срамотилачки резили, а према трети од Илирите м.з.??? ова се резултатите што Стипчевич на крај ги презентира, не се знае дали можеби од Тракијците, или пак од Дакомезијанците, или пак од Илирите и тн., е со сила и политички порачки наука не бидува...)

И на крај како капак на целата оваа рингишпил-историска наука Спипчевич ќе заклучи:
“Данас су лингвинисти углавном слажу да се не може доказати да је албански језик остатак илирског...“

Спипчевич многу сликовито ја опишува целата истражувачка играрија во врска со илирското потекло на Албанците со зборовите: “...прашањето на континуитетот да излезе од сферите на шпекулациите...“ бидејќи и самиот знае дека сето тоа што се изнесува се најобични шпекулации.:helou::helou::helou:

 

[Wolver1nE]

Нова книга излезе -- Албанските Фалсификати -- во која наш новинар испрашува на албански професори.

Ја имам дома ќе ја направам pdf верзија ко ќе имам време. Интересни работи има... Албанциве нема нешто што не е украдено па изменето од други ништо нивно немаат.

 

[@cool@]

Нова книга излезе -- Албанските Фалсификати -- во која наш новинар испрашува на албански професори.

Ја имам дома ќе ја направам pdf верзија ко ќе имам време. Интересни работи има... Албанциве нема нешто што не е украдено па изменето од други ништо нивно немаат.

Кој е авторот на книгата?

 

[Picasso`]

Денес секој има можност да издава книги, историјата како наука многу и не држи вода, барем едно 20% од тие "факти" се гола вода...

Пример Грчкиот АНТРОПОЛОГ Пулијанос, кој е познат во светот, потврдува дека Албанците се потомци на древните народи, од друга страна имаш некој сучко историчар кој ќе мрчне нешто во контекст на тоа дека Албанците ова, албанците она, и како извор САНУ, односно Србската Академија, и тие две академии взаемно си се помагаат, во инкорпорација е тука и Бугарската, а во последно време инфо црпат и новите историчари, Педер Поповски итн...

Затоа, да остаиме некој друг да каже, некој италијанец, англичанец, перуанец, американец, германец итн... Во спротивно ќе уживаме во селф-сатисфактион, како што денес така прават многу многу многу народи... и Историчари.

 

[EdoSlav]

Albancite imaat golema fizionomska srodnost so rumuncite, a se veli deka i ilirskiot jazik bil sroden so jazikot sho go zborele Dacite t.e. predcite na rumunskiot narod. Za da se svati orgomnata fizionomskata slichnost pomegju albancite i rumuncite ne se potrebni nikakvi genetski, nitu pa istoriski ispituvanja ili dokazi. Samo sho rumuncite se sramat da priznaat deka albancite se srodni na niv, na bilo koj nachin. Vistina e toa deka ilirite bile na balkanot pred doagjanjeto na starite sloveni, no i vistina e toa deka starite sloveni slovenizirale (so jazik i sex) sve sho nashle pred sebe. Do vchera albancite nemaa azbuka, a sega pishuvaat na forumive deka tie znaele koi se i sho se... :helou:

 

[anaveno]

Albancite imaat golema fizionomska srodnost so rumuncite, a se veli deka i ilirskiot jazik bil sroden so jazikot sho go zborele Dacite t.e. predcite na rumunskiot narod. Za da se svati orgomnata fizionomskata slichnost pomegju albancite i rumuncite ne se potrebni nikakvi genetski, nitu pa istoriski ispituvanja ili dokazi. Samo sho rumuncite se sramat da priznaat deka albancite se srodni na niv, na bilo koj nachin. Vistina e toa deka ilirite bile na balkanot pred doagjanjeto na starite sloveni, no i vistina e toa deka starite sloveni slovenizirale (so jazik i sex) sve sho nashle pred sebe. Do vchera albancite nemaa azbuka, a sega pishuvaat na forumive deka tie znaele koi se i sho se... :helou:

Albancite imaat golema fizionomska srodnost so rumuncite,...

 

[Picasso`]

Хаха...

Лајнавено во светот е једини кој се противи на E3b1a2, бил ромски ген...

Па уше блог напраил... Хахаха...

Welcome to the E3b Project



We're approaching the first anniversary since publicly launching the haplozone and its data-driven E3b Project's website in the summer of 2007. It hasn't been a year yet and we have already more than doubled the number of participants in the project. But besides our membership significant increase, many other interesting things have happened in the past few months as well.

It was shortly after we launched this website that FTDNA introduced the V-Series deep-clade SNP tests for E3b1a, which is the most numerous subclade in the E3b Project. These new mutations, collectively known as the V-Series, were recently discovered by Fulvio Cruciani et al., and published in his latest study Tracing Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia. (For a list of Cruciani's studies as well as other geneticists' reports, please check out this handy compilation here.)

So far, more than one hundred members' haplotypes have been tested for the V-Series mutations and, as the following chart shows, the V13+ haplotypes or E3b1a2 constitute the largest sub-branch of this subclade.




V13+ or E3b1a2 is by far the most widely spread of E3b's branches in Europe, showing its highest concentration in the Balkan Peninsula. Project member and co-administrator Steven Bird, has published an interesting paper in the last fall edition of the Journal of Genetic Genealogy, Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin, which as the title indicates is focused on this particular branch. You can find this document in pdf format in this hyperlink. This is a must read for all those who belong to E3b1a2.

The V-Series tests have also revealed among our participants other less numerous but very significant branches, namely V22+ (E3b1a3) and V12+ (E3b1a1), whose origins and geographic dispersal are still a little less understood. However, Cruciani's research shows a substantial concentration of these two branches along the Nile river in Northeast Africa. It isn't exactly clear yet how these subclades made their arrival into Europe, but our very own project members and co-administrators Dirk Schweitzer and Kerry O'Dair have been concentrating their research efforts respectively in these two subclades and can be reached via the Double~Helix forum.

And the most mysterious discovery out of the V-Series tests until now are three M78* (E3b1a*) and a single V65+ (E3b1a4). In the first case the asterisk symbol in the M78* indicates that these haplotypes were tested for all V-Series SNPs but all results turned out negative, which means that this represents an older genetic lineage and the ancestral branch from which all V-Series mutations successively arose in later times. In the case of our single V65+ result, we could be witnessing a very rare branch of E3b1a or maybe this could be a representative haplotype from a world population that we still haven't significantly tapped in terms of genetic testing.

In other fronts, the Cluster Analysis section has been a very successful and welcome addition to the E3b Project. Thanks to the efforts of Elise Friedman, administrator herself of several DNA projects including the Jewish E3b Project, all our members' haplotypes have been categorized now into more than 40 distinct clusters. This clustering is mostly based on specific markers or combinations of markers in correlation to pre-existing SNP tested haplotypes and other variables which require sharp observation skills and a lot of acumen. This exclusive in-house prediction system that has taken the E3b project one step beyond the formal nomenclature, and to the forefront of the genetic genealogy community, has proven highly accurate time and again. We can say, for example, that there is a high likelihood that clusters in our second largest subclade in the project, M34+ (E3b1c1), will eventually be corroborated by the discovery of new SNPs in the near future, and the same will probably apply to M35* (E3b1*) .



There are some exciting developments coming our way in the field of genetic genealogy in general and in our E3b haplogroup in particular. We, the team of administrators, co-administrators and moderators at the E3b Project are constantly striving to elucidate the ancestral structure of E3b's phylogenetic tree, including those more exotic and less known branches. To this end, we have decided to activate the E3b Project's General Fund and invite everyone to contribute in the measure of their possibilities to help us in the following goals:

• Sponsor STR marker upgrades of selected haplotypes that could potentially help us better define a cluster or a subclade.
• Sponsor SNP deep-clade testing of selected haplotypes when their marker values are too ambiguous to confidently predict their subclades.
• Subsidize special research projects to discover new SNPs (subclades) within E3b.

All contributions will be channeled via Family Tree DNA's General Fund as explained at this hyperlink so none of us will be receiving any monies. The selection process to decide which haplotypes to sponsor will be based on the funds collected and the Project Administrators' consensus considering the criteria above, particularly where the testees can not currently afford such tests. Consent will be obtained from said testees previous to ordering any tests and results will then be published when available in our Project's webpage. Donations, large or small, can be made at the same link above. Alternatively, if someone does not want to make a contribution to the Project's general fund but he/she is in the position to upgrade their own haplotype markers or determine their deep-clade SNPs, they are encouraged to do so. (By the way, the E3b team that makes all this possible is made up of volunteers, who freely give their time and resources and don't get any monetary gain from FTDNA or any other testing lab.)

Another request for all our registered members, that doesn't have anything to do with money, is to review and update if necessary their Ancestral Landmarks. This is the new mapping feature recently introduced to the haplozone that allows us to geographically plot on a world map relevant places associated with our known ancestors like this example. For detailed instructions on this please go to our Frequently Asked Questions page. Please note that in order to do this your haplozone account must be already activated. If it isn't, please read this.

Finally, our Double~Helix forum has kept growing too in members and posted messages. Like most of you know, this is The place for all-things E3b where members can post their questions and comments about genetic genealogy in general and about haplogroup E3b in particular. We want to encourage all those members who still have not registered in the forum to do so and share your comments, questions and/or experiences with the rest of us. As always, there’s still plenty to do to make our haplogroup project even better. We’re looking forward in the following months to a greater member participation and to new genetic discoveries to enhance our understanding of our haplogroup. And of course, if you or a direct relative has been confirmed or predicted as E3b you are cordially invited to join our project.

Dedicated to all E3b

Victor Villarreal

Spring of 2008

Eve Лајнарче, не оти ќе сфати таа тиква дрвена ама ако...

y HARBISON brother-in-law's DNA haplotype E3b1a2 was drastically
reclassified in Feb 2008 by the International Society of Genetic
Geneaology[ISOGGI] to E1b1b1A2. This would, I'm sure, be applicable to all
Harbison/Harvison/Herbison , etc.of the E3b group.

Men with this DNA are definitely of Ulster Scots ancestry and, earlier,
much earlier, almost certainly from Thracian soldiers in the Roman army
which occupied Britain in the early Christian era. Many Thracian soldiers
were inducted into the Roman Army. The territory of ancient Thrace is now
Kosovo. Some of the male inhabitants still test as E1b1b1a2! [Really!]

I can provide an internet reference on the Thracian DNA to anyone
interested.

Theron Smith


http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/HARBISON/2008-06/1214310259

> >The highest density of E3b1(alpha)'s in Europe is found just 100
miles
>due
> >west of Sophia, in the vicinity of Pristina, Kosovo, approaching 50%
of
>the
> >modern population. Can anyone seriously doubt that Longinus was in
all
> >likelihood an E3b1(alpha)?
> >
>A little bit of hyperbole there? If E3b1(alpha) is "approaching 50%"
of
>a population, that means that over half of them are not in that
haplogroup!
>

Not really. The exact figure is 47%. A cline map shows this as the
highest
concentration of E3b1(alpha) on the planet. There is no other
haplogroup in
this region that even approaches this percentage in the region around
Pristina.

Steve

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-09/1159476500

 

[Picasso`]

Here are some data from Siiri Rootsi, Chiara Magri, Toomas Kivisild et al., "Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe," American Journal of Human Genetics 75:128–137 (2004).

Italian (northern Italy):
5/194 = 2.6% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
2/194 = 1.0% I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26)
2/194 = 1.0% I2b1-M223

9/194 = 4.6% I-M170 total

Italian (central Italy):
2/196 = 1.0% I-M170(xI1-M253, I2a-P37, I2b1-M223)
4/196 = 2.0% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
2/196 = 1.0% I2a1-M26
6/196 = 3.1% I2b1-M223

14/196 = 7.1% I-M170 total

Italian (Calabria):
3/148 = 2.0% I-M170(xI1-M253, I2a-P37, I2b1-M223)
1/148 = 0.7% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
1/148 = 0.7% I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26)
1/148 = 0.7% I2a1-M26
2/148 = 1.4% I2b1-M223

8/148 = 5.4% I-M170 total

Italian (Albanese[sic] origin):
1/78 = 1.3% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
1/78 = 1.3% I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26)
3/78 = 3.8% I2b1-M223

5/78 = 6.4% I-M170 total

Italian (Apulia):
1/78 = 1.3% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
1/78 = 1.3% I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26)

2/78 = 2.6% I-M170 total

Italian (Sicily):
4/51 = 7.8% I-M170(xM26?) total

Italian (Sardinia):
58/142 = 40.8% I2a1-M26
2/142 = 1.4% I2b1-M223

60/142 = 42.3% I-M170 total

Italian(xSardinia, Sicily, Arbëreshë) total:
5/616 = 0.8% I-M170(xI1-M253, I2a-P37, I2b1-M223)
11/616 = 1.8% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
4/616 = 0.6% I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26)
3/616 = 0.5% I2a1-M26
10/616 = 1.6% I2b1-M223

33/616 = 5.4% I-M170 total

It seems that the density of the distribution of haplogroup I in Italy is among the lowest in Europe. It is also interesting that the Arbëreshë seem to have a much lower frequency of haplogroup I than their ethnic brethren who have remained in Albania during the centuries of Ottoman rule, mostly due to the rarity of I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26) among the ethnic Albanians in Italy. Perhaps the spread of I2a2-Dinaric among populations in the Balkans might have been facilitated by the territorial expanse of the Ottoman Empire.

For comparison:

Albanian (Rootsi et al. 2004)
3/106 = 2.8% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
18/106 = 17.0% I2a-P37(xI2a1-M26)
4/106 = 3.8% I2b1-M223

25/106 = 23.6% I-M170 total

Albanians (Battaglia et al. 2008)
2/55 = 3.6% I1-M253(xM21, M227, M507)
8/55 = 14.5% I2a2-M423(xM359)
2/55 = 3.6% I2b1-M223

12/55 = 21.8% I-M170 total

FYROM Albanians (Battaglia et al. 2008)
3/64 = 4.7% I1-M253(xM21, M227, M507)
1/64 = 1.6% I2a-P37.2(xI2a1-M26, I2a2-M423)
6/64 = 9.4% I2a2-M423(xM359)
1/64 = 1.6% I2a1-M26

11/64 = 17.2% I-M170 total

Balkan Albanian total (Rootsi et al. 2004 + Battaglia et al. 2008)
8/225 = 3.6% I1-M253(xI1b-M227)
33/225 = 14.7% I2a-P37.2(xI2a1-M26) [Compare with 1/78 = 1.3% I2a-P37.2(xI2a1-M26) in the "Italian (Albanese origin)" sample of Rootsi et al. 2004]
1/225 = 0.4% I2a1-M26
6/225 = 2.7% I2b1-M223

48/225 = 21.3% I-M170 total

It seems that Albanians in the Balkans have average European levels of haplogroup I-M170, mostly due to the fact that about 15% of them belong to haplogroup I2a, whereas Albanians in Italy, like the Italian population in general, exhibit a very low frequency of haplogroup I-M170. Now it needs to be determined whether haplogroup I has become rare among the Arbëreshë due to mixing with Italians in their new homeland (mainly Calabria and Sicily in southern Italy), or whether haplogroup I has become common among Albanians in the Balkans due to mixing with other subjects of the Ottoman Empire. At first glance, the Ottoman hypothesis seems more plausible to me, but I need data on the composition of the rest of the Y-DNA pool of the Arbëreshë.

ЈА! На читај офцо!

Треба да ти е јасно, дека овде не се сите глупави како тебе и не сите имаат скромно познавање...

Тебе ти се сака, да не се албанците автохтони, тебе ти се сака Пелазгите да се Белазги, тебе ти се сака само Македонците се стари на овие простори... ТЕБЕ ТИ СЕ САКА, тебе ти се овозможува тоа во МАКЕДОНИЈА, надвор од неа, никој не ти тура слама, оти ги пратам сите генетски форуми, сите генетски истражувања, и за жал ништо не се совпаѓа со твоите есктатични, имагинативни, желни и волеви доживувања...

As far as I can gather (as a non-archaeologist), the archaeological picture is remarkably clear for the Balkans. Edwin E. Jacques, The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present (1995) can be partly read online, thanks to Google. Page 11 is the crucial bit, describing the influx of Indo-Europeans into the Balkans in the Early Bronze Age which is apparent in the archaeology. I have added that reference to the article.

Mallory (my first reference re the Balkans) says that archaeologists of Albania and (the former) Yugoslavia and their colleagues in linguistics make a careful distinction between the Indo-European-speaking incomers and the later Illyrians, whom they see as a product of the IE incomers mixing with the local Neolithic population, to produce the people and languages known as Illyrian.

I see what you are asking though. Who contributed most to the genetic make-up of the various peoples speaking Indo-European languages at the dawn of history? The incomers or the Neolithic natives in the various places settled by those incomers? I think we are some way off being able to answer that with any precision. David Anthony talks in terms of small incoming bands, but language change usually comes about through weight of numbers, and it looks to me like the genetics points that way (as I say in the article.) What else can I say? We need more aDNA studies I think.

Иситите генетичаро-историчари гледаат на овоа

Perhaps I should have put in more dates. The move up the Danube is well-attested in the archaeology, but not labelled Celtic at this point. These people would have been speaking a dialect of PIE. This is long before the Celts or the Illyrians emerge into history. The Illyrians spoke another Indo-European language, but it is unclear exactly where it fits into the family. (David Anthony simply leaves it out.)

Presumably Illyrian sprang from the same Yamnaya incursion up the Danube that eventually led to both to the Celtic and Italic languages. Yugoslav and Albanian archaeologists trace the Illyrian culture back to the beginnings of the Early Bronze Age, when tumulus burials appear, connected to the Yamnaya steppe pastoralists. The archaeology of Maliq, Albania, is particularly interesting. There is an abrupt cultural break, with a new culture appearing in the Early Bronze Age (Maliq level IIIa). [I will add a quick word on this.]

Reduced: 48% of original size [ 1054 x 714 ] - Click to view full image

http://www.jogg.info/32/index32.htm

Еве магазинот, кој се занимава со ГЕНЕТИКА...

Таму некаде е и трудот на Steven C. Bird, човек кој многу добро ја разработи темата за која напишав нешто погоре..

И по логиката на нашиот лажен генетичар на форумов, и за РИМ се бореле РОМИ, и ден денес во Англија живеат Роми!

Еве еден разговор, дебата, на двајца Италијанци во врска со Албанците и Албанците во Италија(Arbereshite)...

И двата дискутанти се генетичари...

Првиот

The catholic albanians in Italy..
A rich heritage of South Italy.
They are the Albanians fled from Turkish rule in 1450 c. .

Their language is the ancient Albanian without many Turkish words.
That is why their language is Arberesh while Albanian is the modern Sqiptar ..
The two languages are among them understandable ..
I remember that an Albanian (man from Molise) Arberesh spoke to the Albanians and their understand.
However genetically there are differences between the Albanians in Albania and Italy.
That is why you should always know the village of origin before making comparisons between the ancient people and the current ones.
Southern Italy was depopulated by continuous wars and raids by pirates Muslims.
That is why some areas were colonized by Albanians especially in the mountains of Calabria .. Etc. ..
Saluti
Giuseppe
Ancient dances Italo Albanians.

A moving commentary from a albanian man.. :
Arberesh music is pure albanian. Happy, joy and civilised,just how Albania was before turkish darkness. Who is saying that it looks like italian, he/she doesn'y know anything about albanian folk.We would have been dance like them, if we wouldn't have been occupied by Turks. Thank you arberesh brothers and sisters, for preserving those treasures of Albania. God bless you!First chance I have,I am going to visit arberesh villages.

Другиот

Giuseppe, I think that the genetic impact of Albanians in Italy is very low. I know many "Arberesh" and they have above all Italian surnames. During the centuries they married with people of the neighbouring places and, please, don't make of the "Arberesh" the new Wandering Jew ( re this, read Shlomo Sand, Matai ve'ech humtza ha'am hayehudi ).

Ec ma t'enZon.


Првиот

Surely the Arberesh it will be mixed with the italian people nearby.
But some areas were heavily colonized by Albanians.
There would never have been able to maintain their own language if they had not been mostly Albanians and also for centuries in isolated mountain villages.
Whether they speak the ancient Albanian is true ..
I have known several Arberesh from Calabria and Abruzzo and I confirmed that the Sqiptars generally understand their dialect.
From the Albanian scholars the arberesh language is considered the residue featured ancient Albanian language before the Turkish conquest.
I visit Albania and also arberesh village in Calabria...... The Arberesh visage etc.. and their appearance is not dissimilar to that of the Albanians of Albania.
Family names Albanians in Italy were italianized in very recent times ..
I remember that one who calls Kapizzan. Was Italianized in Capizzano in the thirties.
This absolutely does not want Arberesh say that the Italians are not the same way as the Valdostans or Friulian ..
Greetings
Joseph.

Другиот

I think we are able to recognize the Albanian surnames, also Italianized: Belluscio is of Albanian Extraction, but my friends Panella, Scalzi, and infinite others not.

Non vorrei che, ora che hanno smesso di vedere negli Italiani i Fenici, gli Ebrei, gli Arabi e anche gli Spagnoli dello svanito rifugio Franco-Cantabrico, tu tirassi fuori qualche altro popolo strano. Gli Albanesi, poi, sono stati per cinque secoli "Romani", e la loro lingua è piena di parole latine. Forse tu non vedi in "mbret" e in "shpi" i latini "imperatorem" e "hospitium", ma io sì, che sono glottologo di origine.

 

[Picasso`]

Еве и трет му се додава...


In general, I agree with you that Arberesh effect on Italian population genetics is not that significant. The Arberesh mainly settled in Sicily and Calabria and in a few towns in Basilicata and Puglia. From what I've been able to tell, the haplogroup distribution among the Albanians is very similar to that of the Greeks who settled Sicily and southern Italy (Magna Grecia) - lots of E3b and J2. So the Arberesh settlement, which was not that large, only added to the Neolithic migrations and later Greek colonization of Sicily/southern Italy, without skewing the population genetics that much.

I have an interest in the Arberesh because the town where my paternal grandparents were born is Mezzojuso, one of the four main Arberesh towns in Sicily. Neither of my grandparents were Arberesh, although two of my grandmother's sisters married brothers from Mezzojuso with an Arberesh surname (Barcia). (You can see a list of Arberesh surnames in the Sicilian towns at http://www.aacl.com/The%20Arberesh%20Villa...of%20Sicily.htm which classifies the surnames from various historical documents, including the Byzantine Rite church tax records, for Arberesh, and the Latin Rite church tax records, for "native" Sicilians.) I do have a couple of Arberesh surnames in my family tree that come in around 1800, so I'm probably 1/32 or 1/64 Arberesh. This backs up what you wrote about intermarriage between the Arberesh and the "native" Sicilians.

 

[Let 3]

Албанија и Албанци не постоеа до 18-19 век.
Можеби живуркаа под други имиња ваму таму али не се староседелци овде.
Едноставно не се споменуваат во ни едни извори кои ги набројуваат териториите и народите на Балканот.

 

[Picasso`]

Албанија и Албанци не постоеа до 18-19 век.
Можеби живуркаа под други имиња ваму таму али не се староседелци овде.
Едноставно не се споменуваат во ни едни извори кои ги набројуваат териториите и народите на Балканот.

Не тропај!

Патем, истиот Стивен Брд... на еден од проминентните генетски форуми каде генетичари дискутираат, а таму видов и постови од еден наш Албански форумџија на Кајгана, т.е. Стурмге... кој поставува прашања, но ова нема врска со неговите прашања туку баш со хаплогрупа E3b1

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=999.0


I did something today that I rarely have done: I plunked down $32 bucks for the new Battaglia paper. It was worth it.

There are 235 new haplotypes in this study. The remaining haplos (a total of 1206) are derived from previous studies (Rootsi 2004, Semino 2004, Marjanovic 2005.) What is most interesting to me is that all of their conclusions, designed to support the cultural diffusion model, are based on the EE mutation rate from ZUF 2004 (.00069) or put another way, an EE rate of 3.6, which would appear to be at least highly questionable if not incorrect outright. If a lower rate is used (say, 2.4) it may drop the entire data set in line with the early Neolithic. I plan to do some ASD calcs later today.

Dienekes will not be pleased; the variance for V13 peaks in Split, Croatia! (I observed the same thing some time ago from the haplotypes reported in Forensic Science International). The other variance peak is around Konya, Turkey. (Chatal-Hoyuk). The obvious implication is that there is nothing particularly "Greek" about V13 or J2b2-M241 (the Balkan subclade of J2-M12). V13 is oldest along the Adriatic among the Albanians. However, it is even older in Apulia and Sicily. (!)

Here is an interesting quote:

"The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described virtually only in Northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."

I think that it can be reasonably argued that the Albanians are descended from the indigenous population of V13's found in the Balkans, rather than the Greek population. Considering the location along the Adriatic that represents the variance peak (Split), I think that we must call them "Illyrian."

The other interesting twist on all of this new info is that the authors are attempting to support the "cultural diffusion" model at the expense of demic diffusion with regard to the Balkan peninsula. Considering that their entire argument hinges on the use of the 3.6 EE rate, I am not so sure that they have been successful with the attempt. Then, after all of the effort to promote the CD model over DD, they attribute the spread of Cardial Ware (Impressed Ware) to V13, which is of course a demic diffusion based model!

Once again, Cruciani is excluded from the discussion except for when absolutely necessary, even though they refer to his haplotype data from time to time. Weird.

Ќе го најдете лесно постот...

 

[Let 3]

А бе се изнапастира текстови на англиски со некои проценти и ознаки со кои се докажува дека потеклото на таа хало рупа е во Етиопија. Значи тие се дојдени овде. Кога дојдоа? не се кажува, дали пред 20.000 години или 2000 години или 200 години?

Факт е дека не постои поим Албанија или Албанец се до 19 век. Можно е во 19 век да дошле од Етиопија како составен дел на турски војски со се тие халогрупи. Друго е да речиш Македонија и Македонци. И без микроскопи и претпоставки може фино лепо да се следи дека таков народ и територија и држава постоела и постои со милениуми. То со халогрупите е сумњива работа пошто секоја година - две му ги менуваат називите и имињата па секој научник дава претпоставка кој каде бил и од каде потекнува.

 

[Picasso`]

Енд дис...

See the attached Word file for the frequency and variance maps for V13 and J2b2-M241 from this study. The variance peaks in Split Croatia for V13 and has a lesser peak around Konya, Turkey. The actual calculated age (based on variance) in Konya was 9.4 kya (+/-2.9) compared with 9.2 kya (+/-4.3). There is no meaningful difference in these two calculations. The variance for J2b2 (which Cruciani has identified as V13's brother clade within the population of the Balkans) peaks at Konya also, at 10.1 kya (+/-3.4). This would appear to be a single population with two clades making up the male portion. Catal-Hoyuk is not far from Konya. It's my opinion that they have found the origin of V13/M241 (Catal Hoyuk region) but don't like the resulting conclusion. I doubt seriously that V13 and J2b2 arose simultaneously and separately in two regions of the near east at exactly the same time. Ergo, they came from the location where both variances peaked: near Konya, Turkey.

Combining the King et al and Battaglia et al papers, a highly speculative sequence of settlement can be developed:

1. Catal-Hoyuk (10.1-10.4 kya) - 8400-8100 B.C. - the Neolithic revolution is founded
within a few centuries, overpopulation occurs

2. People spread out to several other locations: Lerna/Franchthi, Split, Corfu, Sicily, Apulia. (Initial Neolithic, 9-10 kya)
(Sicily turns out to be quite old in both clades; older than Greece BTW, about 10.0 kya for M241. I have calculated a similar ASD age for V13 in Sicily.

)
3. Other settlements appears: Nea Nikomedeia, Maliq, Starcevo, etc. (8.6 kya) - this is the main wave of the Early Neolithic in the Balkans
4. The proto-Greeks finally make the scene in Sesklo-Dimini (about 4.3 kya) - but they may have migrated there from Lerna, following the House of Tiles destruction (about the same time)?

The Albanians appear to emerge as the oldest population in the Balkans outside of Lerna, with the exception of Split, Croatia, which is almost as far south as Montenegro anyway. The variance table shows clearly that V13 spread from west to east and from north to south in the western Balkans. Given the associations, I am of the opinion that the Albanian V13 in the Vardar-Morava corridor is derived from the Illyrian population.

Since Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia were ignored completely in this study, I can't say whether those folks (clearly within Thracian and Dacian regions) are older, younger or the same age as the Illyrian V13/M241 populations. Mocsy held that the population west of the Vardar-Morava valleys were Illyrian and east of the same valley were Thracian. Perhaps he was exactly correct.

I think that I may have found a way to test my Roman hypothesis, however. Back to the spreadsheets!

Steve

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=999.15

А бе се изнапастира текстови на англиски со некои проценти и ознаки со кои се докажува дека потеклото на таа хало рупа е во Етиопија. Значи тие се дојдени овде. Кога дојдоа? не се кажува, дали пред 20.000 години или 2000 години или 200 години?

Факт е дека не постои поим Албанија или Албанец се до 19 век. Можно е во 19 век да дошле од Етиопија како составен дел на турски војски со се тие халогрупи. Друго е да речиш Македонија и Македонци. И без микроскопи и претпоставки може фино лепо да се следи дека таков народ и територија и држава постоела и постои со милениуми. То со халогрупите е сумњива работа пошто секоја година - две му ги менуваат називите и имињата па секој научник дава претпоставка кој каде бил и од каде потекнува.

Пиле, ова не го куцам бе за ти да го разбереш... Ти си од врба гранка, не мора да веруваш и да знаеш...

Ова може да го разберат Братот еве како модератор сега, Силен... За лажниот етимолого-генетичар не знам колкав му е капацитетот, во последно докажува променливост, особено со АРван АРбан, иако се противеше на увезена етимологија, сега поставува знак еднавост меѓу славјаните и Арванитите/Арбанитите и на крај меѓу истите и Македонците... Игра топло-ладно, не излегува на површина вистината...

Дал ме разбра ? Ова не е за тебе оди со Горан Стојменов и решавајте мистерии на Атлантида...

 

[Let 3]

Значи сепак не постои АЛБАНИЈА и АЛБАНЦИ низ постарата истотија на Балканот.
Гледаш и самиот.

Сите тие математики со хало групи (таа Е3б е една премногу општа група која до сега 3 пати му го менуваа називот) и која велат дека потекнува од Етиопија.
Али на страна тоа, шо праиме со Шќипетарите, пошто мнозинство на народот во Republika e Shqipërisë се Шќипетари. И Шќипетари не се споменуваат се до 19 век.

 

[anaveno]

The Albanians (Shqeptaris) are "one of the oldest Aryan race of Europe"

A Kosovar Albanian woman in front of her family's tent at the Kukes 4 refugee camp, northern Albania. April 1999 (©Human Rights Watch 1999)