Дискусија за Атеистите, Исламот, Христијанството и останати убедувања

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Мислам и на ова. Година 391-392.

Покрај секојдневните кражби и војни со племињата од јужна и латинска Америка, во името на единствениот Бог, а дополнителна причина била и нормално златото, резултирало со уништување на цели цивилизации, градови и религии.
А нешто слично е она со исламот денес. Политика, религија или сепак празноверие?
 

MikioBo

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https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Хронологија_на_христијанството

Мислам и на ова. Година 391-392.

Покрај секојдневните кражби и војни со племињата од јужна и латинска Америка, во името на единствениот Бог, а дополнителна причина била и нормално златото, резултирало со уништување на цели цивилизации, градови и религии.
А нешто слично е она со исламот денес. Политика, религија или сепак празноверие?
Религијата била само изговор и самооправдување, грабежите и војната за територија немаат реално никаква врска со религијата во тој случај. Луѓето си грабале затоа што сакале злато, а владателите сакале територии за повеќе природни ресурси и престиж во споредба со другите држави.
Слично е и со исламот денес, се користи само за побудување бес кај луѓето, кои од раѓање се задојувани со догми и омраза кон другите религии. Значи религијата во тој случај не се користи за духовен мир што е нејзината оригинална цел, туку се користи за перење на мозок за остварување на нечии цели.
 
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Интересен текст, кој навистина покажува некои неточности во популарните митови за „претходниците“ на Исус, но текстот кој јас го постирав не алудираше дека митот за Исус е 100% copy-paste од некој друг мит, туку само дека се позајмувани многу елементи од други фигури кои имале улога на спасители во своите релгии. Твојот текст многу често се зафаќа за некои ситници, само за да покаже дека митовите не се 100%, притоа занемарувајќи дека суштината е иста.
Друго сакав да ти покажам. Текстот што ти го постираше е Weasel word.

Еве ти пример од твојот текст за Дионис/Бахус:

He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son, Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.

Koj го тврди тоа? Каде се тврди тоа, во кои извори? Врз основа на што се тврди тоа? Дали има основа за таквото тврдење или е лага што се провлекува? Или е само штуро набројување без никаква валидна поткрепа?

Еве го одговорот на овие небулози во текстот што јас ти го постирав:

SIMILAR TITLES The following is a list of alleged titles Dionysus is claimed to share with Jesus. Though in the past we have been able to show
some obscure similarities, this list is an obvious fabrication:

  • King of Kings. Dionysus was only a semi-deity. Zeus was the head god according to the mythology.
  • Only Begotten Son. Zeus had many relationships with women where he fathered several other children.
  • Alpha and Omega. Dionysus had a distinct beginning to his existence.
  • Lamb of God. Dionysus is associated with a bull, serpent, wine, and ivy, but never as a lamb.

The titles I did find for Dionysus are The Bull, The Goat Shooter, The Torch, Dionysus of the Knoll, Meat-Eater, Dionysus of the Vine, and
Savior (though the term savior was attributed later to Dionysus for promising carnal pleasure in the afterlife. The only person he saved from
Hades was his mother, Semele.).
 

MikioBo

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Друго сакав да ти покажам. Текстот што ти го постираше е Weasel word.

Еве ти пример од твојот текст за Дионис/Бахус:

He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son, Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.

Koj го тврди тоа? Каде се тврди тоа, во кои извори? Врз основа на што се тврди тоа? Дали има основа за таквото тврдење или е лага што се провлекува? Или е само штуро набројување без никаква валидна поткрепа?

Еве го одговорот на овие небулози во текстот што јас ти го постирав:

SIMILAR TITLES The following is a list of alleged titles Dionysus is claimed to share with Jesus. Though in the past we have been able to show
some obscure similarities, this list is an obvious fabrication:

  • King of Kings. Dionysus was only a semi-deity. Zeus was the head god according to the mythology.
  • Only Begotten Son. Zeus had many relationships with women where he fathered several other children.
  • Alpha and Omega. Dionysus had a distinct beginning to his existence.
  • Lamb of God. Dionysus is associated with a bull, serpent, wine, and ivy, but never as a lamb.
The titles I did find for Dionysus are The Bull, The Goat Shooter, The Torch, Dionysus of the Knoll, Meat-Eater, Dionysus of the Vine, and
Savior (though the term savior was attributed later to Dionysus for promising carnal pleasure in the afterlife. The only person he saved from
Hades was his mother, Semele.).
Во право си, видов одпосле дека има повеќе глупости пишувано. Требаше подетално да го прочитам пред да постирам, јас само ги видов сличните фигури (сите на листата се навистина имаат сличности со Исус, но многу помалку од она напишаното во постот) и претпоставив дека е во ред.
 

Ipsissimus

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Во право си, видов одпосле дека има повеќе глупости пишувано. Требаше подетално да го прочитам пред да постирам, јас само ги видов сличните фигури (сите на листата се навистина имаат сличности со Исус, но многу помалку од она напишаното во постот) и претпоставив дека е во ред.
http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2008/04/zeitgeist-refuted-not.html

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeist.html

http://freethoughtnation.com/no-zeitigeist-has-not-been-refuted/

Horus
Horus the Child was born on December 25th and every day as Ra-Horakhti, Horus of the Two Horizons. His mother, Isis, was called the “Great Virgin” in the Temple of Seti I at Abydos. Sirius marks the birth of Horus the Elder, followed by the Three Kings of Orion. Horus leads 12 followers through the underworld. He baptizes or purifies the dead (CT Sp. 74) He dies and resurrects, per Diodorus Siculus (1.25.6), 1st cent. BCE.

Attis
Attis is the “son of Cybele in her form as the virgin, Nana, who is impregnated by the divine force in the form of a pomegranate.” -Dr. David Leeming, University of Connecticut. The god is the “castrated and crucified Attis.” -Textual Strategies by Dr. Josué V. Harari “Each year, Attis was born at the winter solstice.” -Shirley Toulson “The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise.” Dr. Andrew Fear

Mithra
Persians believe Mithra was born of the virgin goddess Anahita. “December 25th” is an ancient winter-solstice celebration. The ancient Persian winter-solstice festival of Yalda is still celebrated as the birthday of Mithra. Mithra’s 12 “disciples” are the zodiac signs that are his satellites. As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. Mithra ascended to heaven in his solar cart.

Further Reading
ZEITGEIST Sourcebook: Part 1–The Greatest Story Ever Told
Top 10 myths about the religion part of Zeitgeist
Attis: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Crucified and Resurrected after Three Days
Dionysus: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Killed and Resurrected after Three Days
Was Horus Born on December 25th of a Virgin?
ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!!
Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity
Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun Godhttp://truthbeknown.com/horus.html
Early Church Fathers on Mithraism | The Devil Did It
Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning ‘Zeitgeist, Part 1′
Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence (forum thread)
Jesus as the Sun throughout History
Zeitgeist transcript in Arabic
 
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Ipsissimus

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Друго сакав да ти покажам. Текстот што ти го постираше е Weasel word.

Еве ти пример од твојот текст за Дионис/Бахус:

He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son, Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.

Koj го тврди тоа? Каде се тврди тоа, во кои извори? Врз основа на што се тврди тоа? Дали има основа за таквото тврдење или е лага што се провлекува? Или е само штуро набројување без никаква валидна поткрепа?

Еве го одговорот на овие небулози во текстот што јас ти го постирав:

SIMILAR TITLES The following is a list of alleged titles Dionysus is claimed to share with Jesus. Though in the past we have been able to show
some obscure similarities, this list is an obvious fabrication:

  • King of Kings. Dionysus was only a semi-deity. Zeus was the head god according to the mythology.
  • Only Begotten Son. Zeus had many relationships with women where he fathered several other children.
  • Alpha and Omega. Dionysus had a distinct beginning to his existence.
  • Lamb of God. Dionysus is associated with a bull, serpent, wine, and ivy, but never as a lamb.
The titles I did find for Dionysus are The Bull, The Goat Shooter, The Torch, Dionysus of the Knoll, Meat-Eater, Dionysus of the Vine, and
Savior (though the term savior was attributed later to Dionysus for promising carnal pleasure in the afterlife. The only person he saved from
Hades was his mother, Semele.).
Никаква валидна потврда?! Ај да видиме дали нема никаква валидна потврда и дали е само штуро набројување:
"Early Christian art is rich with Dionysiac associations, whether in boisterous representations of agape feasting, in the miracle of water-into-wine at Cana, in wine and vine motifs alluding to the Eucharaist, and most markedly...in the use of Dionysiac facial traits for representations of Christ."

—Dr. Thomas F. Mathews, The Clash of the Gods, 45

Dionysus as the Sun
In studying religion and mythology, it is wise at to keep in mind that in the ancient world many gods were confounded and compounded, deliberately or otherwise. Some were even considered interchangeable, such as the Egyptian gods Osiris, Horus and Ra. In this regard, ancient Greek historian Plutarch (35, 364E) states, "Osiris is identical with Dionysus," the Greek son of God. Dionysus, also known as Bacchus or Iacchus, is likewise identified with the god Aion and referred to as "Zeus Sabazius" in other traditions. (Graves, R., 335) Hence, we would expect him to share at least some of all these gods' attributes, including being born of a virgin at the winter solstice (Aion), and dying and rising from the dead (Osiris).

"Bacchus, Apollo, the Sun, are one deity."

Moreover, in Seven Books Against the Heathen (3.33), early Christian writer Arnobius (284-305) remarks that the Pagans "maintain that Bacchus, Apollo, the Sun, are one deity" and "the sun is also Bacchus and Apollo." (Roberts, VI, 472-3) We would expect, therefore, Dionysus's attributes to reflect solar mythology as well.



Dionysus returns from India riding a quadriga chariot
Mosaic pavement, 3rd cent. ad/ce
Sousse, Tunisia
(Patrick Hunt)



December 25th/Winter Solstice
As with Jesus, December 25th and January 6th are both traditional birth dates in the Dionysian myth and simply represent the period of the winter solstice. Indeed, the winter-solstice date of the Greek sun and wine god Dionysus was originally recognized in early January but was eventually placed on December 25th, as related by ancient Latin writer Macrobius (c. 400 AD/CE). Regardless, the effect is the same: The winter sun god is born around this time, when the shortest day of the year begins to become longer.

"Macrobius transfers this feast to the day of the winter solstice, December 25."

The ancient Church father Epiphanius (4th cent. ) discussed the birth of the god Aion, son of the Greek goddess Persephone or Kore ("Maiden"), at the time of the winter solstice. In this regard, Christian theologian Rev. Dr. Hugh Rahner (139-140) remarks:

We know that Aion was at this time beginning to be regarded as identical with Helios and Helios with Dionysus...because [according to Macrobius] Dionysus was the symbol of the sun... He is made to appear small at the time of the winter solstice, when upon a certain day the Egyptians take him out of the crypt, because on this the shortest day of the year it is as though he were a little child.... Macrobius transfers [this feast] to the day of the winter solstice, December 25.

Dionysus is thus equivalent to Aion and was also said to have been born of Persephone, the virgin maiden. Esteemed mythologist Joseph Campbell (MI, 34) confirms this "celebration of the birth of the year-god Aion to the virgin Goddess Kore," the latter of whom he calls "a Hellenized transformation of Isis," the Egyptian mother goddess who was likewise called the "Great Virgin" in inscriptions predating the Christian era by centuries.[1]

Virgin Birth
According to the most common tradition, Dionysus was the son of the god Zeus and the mortal woman Semele. In the Cretan version of the same story, which the pre-Christian Greek historian Diodorus Siculus follows, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the daughter of Demeter also called Kore, who is styled a "virgin goddess."

In the common myth about the birth of Dionysus/Bacchus, Semele is mysteriously impregnated by one of Zeus's bolts of lightning--an obvious miraculous/virgin conception.

Semele immolated by the sky-god father-figure Zeus, who takes the divine child Bacchus (Bernard Salomon, Metamorphose figurée, 1557)
Concerning Dionysus's epithet "twice begotten," in the third century Church father Minucius Felix (Commodius, XII) remarked to his Pagan audience:

Ye yourselves say that Father Liber was assuredly twice begotten. First of all he was born in India of Proserphine [Persephone] and Jupiter [Zeus]... Again, restored from his death, in another womb Semele conceived him again of Jupiter... (Roberts, IV, 205)

"The virgin conceived the ever-dying, ever-living god of bread and wine, Dionysus."

In another account, Jupiter/Zeus gives Dionysus's torn-up heart in a drink to Semele, who becomes pregnant with the "twice born" god this way, again a miraculous or "virgin" birth. Indeed, Joseph Campbell explicitly calls Semele a "virgin":

While the maiden goddess sat there, peacefully weaving a mantle on which there was to be a representation of the universe, her mother contrived that Zeus should learn of her presence; he approached her in the form of an immense snake. And the virgin conceived the ever-dying, ever-living god of bread and wine, Dionysus, who was born and nurtured in that cave, torn to death as a babe and resurrected... (Campbell, MG, 4.27)

This same direct appellation is used by Cambridge professor and anthropologist Sir Dr. Edmund Ronald Leach:

Dionysus, son of Zeus, is born of a mortal virgin, Semele, who later became immortalized through the intervention of her divine son; Jesus, son of God, is born of a mortal virgin, Mary… such stories can be duplicated over and over again. (Hugh-Jones, 108)

Using the scholarly Greek term parthenos, meaning "virgin," in The Cult of the Divine Birth in Ancient Greece (95) Dr. Marguerite Rigoglioso concludes: "Semele was also likely a holy parthenos by virtue of the fact that she gave birth to Dionysus via her union with Zeus (Hesiod, Theogony 940)."

These learned individuals had reason to consider Dionysus's mother a virgin, as, again, he was also said to have been born of Persephone/Kore, whom, once more from Epiphanius, was herself deemed a "virgin," orparthenos. In this regard, professor emeritus of Classics at the University of Pennsylvania Dr. Donald White (183) says, "As a title 'Parthenos' was appropriate to both Demeter and Persephone..."

The fact that Persephone is associated with parthenogenesis, the scholarly term for "virgin birth," lends credence to the notion that Dionysus was virgin-born. As related further by Rigoglioso in Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity (111):

Persephone's connection with the parthenogenetic pomegranate is attested in text and iconography. In speaking directly about the Eleusinian Mysteries, Clement of Alexandria (Exhortation to the Greeks 2:16) informs us that the pomegranate tree was believed to have sprung from the drops of the blood of Dionysus…

Although Dionysus is depicted as being the product of a "rape" by Zeus, the story is little different from the impregnation of the Virgin Mary by Yahweh without her consent, especially in consideration of the identification of Dionysus's very blood with parthenogenesis. In this regard, Rigoglioso also states, "I contend that Persephone's eating of the pomegranate was the magical action that instigated her ability to conceive parthenogenetically."

Also, in the museum in Naples has been kept an ancient marble urn showing the birth/nativity of Dionysus, with two groups of three figures on either side of the god Mercury, who is holding the divine baby, and a female figure who is receiving him.[2]



This depiction resembles the gospel story of "wise men" or dignitaries, traditionally held to number three, approaching Joseph, the divine child and Mary.

Miracles
The miracles of Dionysus are legendary, as is his role as the god of wine, echoed in the later Christian story of Jesus multiplying the jars of wine at the wedding feast of Cana (Jn 2:1-9). Concerning this miracle, biblical scholar Dr. A.J. Mattill remarks:

This story is really the Christian counterpart to the pagan legends of Dionysus, the Greek god of wine, who at his annual festival in his temple of Elis filled three empty kettles with wine-no water needed! And on the fifth of January wine instead of water gushed from his temple at Andros. If we believe Jesus' miracle, why should we not believe Dionysus's? (Leedom, 125)

Dionysus's miracle of changing water to wine is recounted in pre-Christian times by Diodorus (Library of History, 3.66.3). As the god of the vine, Dionysus is depicted in ancient texts as traveling around teaching agriculture, as well as doing various other miracles, such as in Homer's The Iliad, dating to the 9th century BCE, and in The Bacchae of Euripides, the famous Greek playwright who lived around 480 to 406 BCE.

"Dionysus's blood is the wine of the sacrifice."

It is further interesting that the Communion as practiced today within Catholicism also had a place within the cult of Dionysus, as Campbell points out:

Dionysus-Bacchus-Zagreus-or, in the older, Sumero-Babylonian myths, Dumuzi-absu, Tammuz-...whose blood, in this chalice to be drunk, is the pagan prototype of the wine of the sacrifice of the Mass, which is transubstantiated by the words of consecration into the blood of the Son of the Virgin. (Campbell, MG, 4.23)

Epithets
In an Orphic hymn, Phanes-Dionysus is styled by the Greek title Protogonos or "first-born" of Zeus, also translated at times as "only-begotten son," although the term Monogenes would be more appropriately rendered as the latter. He is also called "Soter" or "Savior" in various inscriptions, including a bronze coin from the Thracian city of Maroneia dating to circa 400-350 BCE.[3] Like Jesus in his aspect as the Father, Dionysus is called Pater, or "father" in Greek.

"Dionysus is 'first-born,' 'Savior' and 'Father.'"

The title "King of Kings" and other epithets may reflect Dionysus's kinship with Osiris: During the late 18th to early 19th dynasties (c. 1300 BCE), Osiris's epithets included, "the king of eternity, the lord of everlastingness, who traverseth millions of years in the duration of his life, the firstborn son of the womb of Nut, begotten of Seb, the prince of gods and men, the god of gods, the king of kings, the lord of lords, the prince of princes, the governor of the world whose existence is for everlasting." (Budge, liii)

Death/Resurrection
Dionysus's death and resurrection were famous in ancient times, so much so that Christian father Origen (c. 184-c. 254) felt the need to address them in his Contra Celsus (IV, XVI-XVII), comparing them unfavorably, of course, to those of Christ. By Origen's time, these Dionysian mysteries had already been celebrated for centuries. Dionysus/Bacchus's resurrection or revival after having been torn to pieces or otherwise killed earned him the epithet of "twice born."


'cene in the underworld. Dionysos mounting a chariot is about to leave his mother, Semele, and ascend'
(Kerenyi, pl. 47)

Moreover, it was said that Dionysus/Bacchus "slept three nights with Proserpine [Persephone],"[4] evidently referring to the god's journey into the underworld to visit his mother. Like Jesus, the god is claimed also to have "ascended to heaven," such as by Church father Justin Martyr (First Apology, 21; Roberts I, 170). Note that Dionysus is depicted here as an adult, rising out of the underworld after death, with a horse-driven chariot so typical of a sun god. One major astrotheological meaning of this motif is the sun's entrance into and exit from the cave (womb) of the world at the winter solstice.

Hence, in Dionysus we have yet another solar hero, born of a virgin on "December 25th" or the winter solstice, performing miracles and receiving divine epithets, being killed, giving his blood as a sacrifice, resurrecting from the dead after three days in Hades/Hell, and ascending into heaven. These motifs have all been claimed of the gospel figure of Jesus Christ since antiquity and have to do not with the adventures of a "historical" Jewish savior but with the ubiquitous solar mythos and ritual.

[1] See Murdock, Christ in Egypt, 120-197.

[2] Carus, 49; Mangasarian, 74. For the illustration, Carus cites: "After Mus. Bord., I., 49, from Baumeister, Plate I., p. 448."
[3] Wright, 30. See also Adrados, 327.
[4] Classical Journal, 92.

Bibliography

For more information, see Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, 95-103, etc. See also The ZEITGEIST Sourcebook

Link
 
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Horus
Horus the Child was born on December 25th and every day as Ra-Horakhti, Horus of the Two Horizons. His mother, Isis, was called the “Great Virgin” in the Temple of Seti I at Abydos. Sirius marks the birth of Horus the Elder, followed by the Three Kings of Orion. Horus leads 12 followers through the underworld. He baptizes or purifies the dead (CT Sp. 74) He dies and resurrects, per Diodorus Siculus (1.25.6), 1st cent. BCE.
BORN ON THE 25TH OF DECEMBER Horus' birth was actually celebrated during the month of Khoiak, (October/November). Though some
critics claim Horus was born during the winter solstice, this shows more of a relationship to other pagan religions which considered the solstices
sacred.

VIRGIN BIRTH There are two separate birth accounts in regards to Horus (neither depict a virgin birth):

Version 1: Hathor, the motherly personification of the milky way, is said to have conceived Horus but we are told her husband, Ra, was an Egyptian sun god. Hathor (a sky goddess) was represented by the cow whose milk brought forth the milky way. By the will of her husband Ra, she gave birth to Horus:"I, Hathor of Thebes, mistress of the goddesses, to grant to him a coming forth into the presence [of the god]... Hathor of Thebes, who was
incarnate in the form of a cow and a woman."
Source and Source

Version 2: When we examine Isis as Horus' mother, we are told Isis was not a virgin, but the widow of Osiris. Isis practices magic to raise Osiris from the dead so she can bear a son that would avenge his death. Isis then becomes pregnant from the sperm of her deceased husband. Again, no virgin birth occurs:
"[Isis] made to rise up the helpless members [penis] of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence [sperm], and she made therefrom an heir [Horus]." Source and Source

TWELVE DISCIPLES Superficially this similarity seems accurate until we see Horus' "disciples" were not disciples at all- they were the twelve signs of the zodiac which became associated with Horus, a sky god. However Jesus' disciples were actual men who lived and died, whose writings exist to this day, and whose lives are recorded by historians. Because Horus' "disciples" were merely signs of the zodiac, they never taught his philosophy or spread his teachings. The fact that there are twelve signs of the zodiac (twelve months) as compared to Jesus' twelve apostles is an insignificant coincidence.

CRUCIFIXION AND RESURRECTION Horus is never said to have been crucified, nevertheless to have died. The only connection we can make to Horus being resurrected is if we consider the eventual merger of Horus and Osiris. But such a theory results in an catch 22, apparently noticed by the Egyptians as they later altered their beliefs to fix the contradictions. In the Egyptian tale, Osiris is either dismembered by Set in battle or sealed in a chest and drowned in the Nile. Isis then pieces Osiris' body back together and resurrects Osiris to conceive an heir that will avenge Osiris' death (although technically Osiris is never actually resurrected as he is forbidden to return to the world
of the living). Source and Source"

[Set] brought a shapely and decorated chest, which he hadcaused to be made according to the measurements of the king's body... Set proclaimed that he would gift the chest unto him whose body fitted its proportions with exactness... Then Osiris came forward. He lay down
within the chest, and he filled it in every part. But dearly was his triumph won in that dark hour which was his doom. Ere he could raise his body, the evil followers of Set sprang suddenly forward and shut down the lid, which they nailed fast and soldered with lead. So the richly decorated chest became the coffin of the good king Osiris, from whom departed the breath of life."
Source

Attis
Attis is the “son of Cybele in her form as the virgin, Nana, who is impregnated by the divine force in the form of a pomegranate.” -Dr. David Leeming, University of Connecticut. The god is the “castrated and crucified Attis.” -Textual Strategies by Dr. Josué V. Harari “Each year, Attis was born at the winter solstice.” -Shirley Toulson “The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise.” Dr. Andrew Fear
NANA was a Naiad Nymph of the river Saggarios (Sangarius) in Phrygia (central Anatolia). She was accidentally impregnated by an almond which fell into her lap from a tree grown from the castrated genitals of the god Agdistis. Nana was probably a native Phrygian goddess.

Pausanias, Description of Greece 7. 17. 8 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :
"The gods, fearing Agdistis, cut off the male organ. There grew up from it an almond-tree with its fruit ripe, and a daughter of the river Saggarios (Sangarius0, they say, took the fruit and laid it in her bosom, when it at once disappeared, but she was with child. A boy [Attis] was born, and exposed, but was tended by a he-goat."


VIRGIN BIRTH According to the legend, Agdistis, a hermaphroditic monster, arises from the earth as a descendant of Zeus. Agdistis gives birth to the Sangarius river which brings forth the nymph, Nana, who either holds an almond to her breast and becomes impregnated by the
almond or sits beneath a tree where an almond falls into her lap and impregnates her. Nana later abandons the child who is raised by a goat. We are left to assume Attis was conceived from an almond seed which fell from a tree as a result of Zeus' spilled semen.

CRUCIFIXION This similarity is completely false. Attis castrates himself beneath a pine tree after he is made to go insane before his wedding by Agdistis when the he-she becomes enamoured with him. His blood flows onto the ground from his severed organ and brings forth a patch of violets. Critics try to associate Attis' death beneath a tree with Jesus' death on a "tree." They also try to connect Jesus' blood pouring from his wounds with Attis' blood flow caused by his auto-castration.

RESURRECTION In one version, Agdistis is overcome with remorse for her actions and requests Zeus to preserve the beautiful corpse of Attisso it never decomposes. Noresurrection occurs for Attis. In another account, Agdistis and The Great Mother (or Cybele) carry the pine tree back to a cave where they both mourn the death of Attis. Again, no resurrection. The resurrection story doesn't surface until much later when
Attis is transformed into a pine tree.

ATTIS was a Phrygian vegetation god, the consort of the great Mother Kybele (Cybele). He was forced by the goddess to castrate himself in a mad frenzy as punishment for his infidelity. Initiates into the eunuch priesthood of Kybele, called the Gallai, re-enacted the myth with their self-castration.

Attis was closely identified by the Greeks with Iasion, consort of the Great Mother in the Mysteries of Samothrake. His story was also the likely source for the Greek tale of Aphrodite's love for the youth Ankhises on Mount Ida in the Troad.

http://www.theoi.com/Phrygios/Attis.html

Mithra
Persians believe Mithra was born of the virgin goddess Anahita. “December 25th” is an ancient winter-solstice celebration. The ancient Persian winter-solstice festival of Yalda is still celebrated as the birthday of Mithra. Mithra’s 12 “disciples” are the zodiac signs that are his satellites. As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. Mithra ascended to heaven in his solar cart.
VIRGIN BIRTH There is no mention of a virgin birth in Mithraism. The earliest reliefs depict a fully-mature Mithras emerging from a rock

TWELVE DISCIPLES
Mithras did not have twelve disciples, but I can relate a far-fetched similarity to this allegation. In two of the reliefs to the left, Mithras is surrounded by the twelve signs of the zodiac. Claiming Mithras had twelve disciples because there are twelve signs of the zodiac is the connection critics try to make. The critics simply see twelve beings and claim the figures are disciples. Some go as far to defend their position by mimicking Franz Cumont's theory, claiming the figures were actually Mithras' twelve disciples dressed up in zodiac costumes! How they can make this connection is unknown as no inscriptions accompany the original reliefs.

ATONEMENT OF SIN The claim regarding Mithras atoning for sin leads me to as the question, how? There is no mention of this in any record. Mithras does sacrifice a sacred bull to create life but I see no reference to the atoning of sin, the atoning of sin through blood, or Mithras atoning for sin. Some try to merge the bull and Mithras into one being but this concept is unanimously rejected by Mithras scholars.
LAST SUPPER There are two reliefs which show Mithras celebrating a banquet. The first relief shows Mithras and Helios dining together after the sacrifice of the bull. The other depicts Mithras dining with the sun before ascending into paradise with the other gods.
 
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Ipsissimus

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На линкот што ти го постирав, изнесена е и посочена библиографија, со цитирани професори - со име и презиме, литература и научни трудови. Во твојот случај нема ништо од тоа.
 
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На линкот што ти го постирав, изнесена е и посочена библиографија, со цитирани професори - со име и презиме, литература и научни трудови. Во твојот случај нема ништо од тоа.
Стрпи се да прочитам:). Oбемен е материјалот. Инаку и во мојот случај имаш наведени извори (Source). Но ќе ти одговорам многу потемелно. Потребно е време за сè ова да се разгледа и да се најдат извори за да се утврди дали е вистина или не е.
 

liberij

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Простотилак и празнотии се нешта кои се евидентни преку делата на оние што ги поседуваат, како и што ти кажав на крајот од предходниот пост. Ти тука ми продаваш м#да за бубрези како православието не го перцепирало Бог како судија, а ни трага ни глас од тебе немаше секој пат кога твоите браќа по вера изнесуваа тешки и гнасни клевети за нас како луѓе и општо како организација.
Јас не гледам дека си нешто подобар во тој контекст за оние што ги осудуваш!
Плачењево ти стана навика секојпат кога се соочуваш со Вистината, братски се надевам дека има нешто покајничко, преумувачко во овие твои реакции(„неможеш да се риташ со бодило“)...:popce:
Дека некој ќе поверува во твојата приказна дека православните не го гледаат Бог како судија?
Еве на пр. зошто лажеш дека не го исповедам Бог како Судија!?:
Позади “потенцирам“ неможеш да ја сокриеш “погрешната интерпретација“ укапирај веќе еднаш!(n)

Сакаш ли да бидеш со Бог или несакаш = Суд Божји,Судија, Бог,:love:. Доволно ли е просто?:rolleyes:
Твојата безобразност е што го наметнуваш твоето секташко, (упс!, ај да ублажам, оти ќе ме обвиниш за грубост),парцијално, фундаменталистичко..., како ти одговара интерпретирање, а велиш не си христијанин, бараш да те бранам, од кого?, од што?, како мало дете, чичко они први почнаа да се закачаат..., глупости!:facepalm:
Вака по твој принцип на “касапење“ не се чита, толкува, интерпретира св. Писмо:
Јован,
5.22 Зашто Таткото не суди никого, туку сето право да суди Му Го предаде на Синот,
12.47Јас нема да им судам на оние што ги слушаат Моите зборови, а не ги исполнуваат, зашто Јас дојдов да го спасам светот, а не да му судам.
Зарем Бог незнае што збори?!
Црквата го зема и интерпретира Божјото, Христово Откровение во целост, онака како Бог открива „одозгора“ со почит, љубов!
 

Ipsissimus

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Јас не гледам дека си нешто подобар во тој контекст за оние што ги осудуваш!
Плачењево ти стана навика секојпат кога се соочуваш со Вистината, братски се надевам дека има нешто покајничко, преумувачко во овие твои реакции(„неможеш да се риташ со бодило“)...:popce:
Со која вистина? Со онаа на троловите на форумов? Оние за кои немаш доблест да ги коментираш, па мораш кукавички да ги премолчуваш нивните лаги, клевети и глупости? Ако зе тебе е плчење да се брани достоинството и честа, тогаш што е соодветно онесување? Да ги оствиме да шират лаги дека жртвуваме деца? Дека се дрогирме? Дека правиме оргии? Кога јас сум кажал лага за вас, па што не сум бил ништо подобар?
Еве на пр. зошто лажеш дека не го исповедам Бог како Судија!?:
Не, ти лажеш во случајов, бидејќи јас зборував во множина за мнозинството православни, дека тие го перцепираат Бог како судија. Ти тоа го прикажа како констатација која се однесувала лично до тебе.
Твојата безобразност е што го наметнуваш твоето секташко, (упс!, ај да ублажам, оти ќе ме обвиниш за грубост),парцијално, фундаменталистичко..., како ти одговара интерпретирање, а велиш не си христијанин, бараш да те бранам, од кого?, од што?, како мало дете, чичко они први почнаа да се закачаат..., глупости!:facepalm:
Вака по твој принцип на “касапење“ не се чита, толкува, интерпретира св. Писмо:
Јован,
5.22 Зашто Таткото не суди никого, туку сето право да суди Му Го предаде на Синот,
12.47Јас нема да им судам на оние што ги слушаат Моите зборови, а не ги исполнуваат, зашто Јас дојдов да го спасам светот, а не да му судам.
Зарем Бог незнае што збори?!
Црквата го зема и интерпретира Божјото, Христово Откровение во целост, онака како Бог открива „одозгора“ со почит, љубов!
Не барам јас да ме браниш од никого! Зборувам за твојата дволичност кога гледаш како твоите соверци си шират лаги и клевети и никаде те нема да го осудиш тоа! Ако ти си убеден дека судењето на другите е погрешно, каде беше кога бевме обвинети со најгнасни и најподли лаги? Или критиките мора по секоја цена да бидат само кон некој што не е христијанин? И после ти ќе ми зборуваш за празнотија и простотилак?
Што се однесува до "цепкањето" како што го нарече. Гледај до каде одат твоите браќа по вера:
Јас ја посочив вистината, а не толкувањето изрази и фрази во склоп од одредно учење, не надвор од истото. Телемитското „толкување„ на телемитското учење не значи по автоматизам и точно толкување, туку самооправдување.
Значи христијанин се дрзнува да ми кажува мене, дека фраза, термин, поим што ние го користиме, не значел тоа што ние знаеме дека значи, туку тоа што тој решил...... И сега ти мене ми кажуваш дека јас сум цепкал и сум толкувал...?!
 

MIKI1

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Значи христијанин се дрзнува да ми кажува мене, дека фраза, термин, поим што ние го користиме, не значел тоа што ние знаеме дека значи, туку тоа што тој решил...... И сега ти мене ми кажуваш дека јас сум цепкал и сум толкувал...?!
Работата е крајно едноставна: ако почетната теза ти е лага, тогаш лагата можеш да ја „толкуваш„ само со некоја друга лага. Вистината со леснотија ја побива лагата и не ја толкува лагата.

Можеш цел ден да ме убедуваш дека Телемата се толкува само од Телемата и тоа нема ништо да промени. Таква тафтологија користат и адвентистите, кои сметаат дека Светото Писмо се толкувало со Светото Писмо.
 

Ipsissimus

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Работата е крајно едноставна: ако почетната теза ти е лага, тогаш лагата можеш да ја „толкуваш„ само со некоја друга лага. Вистината со леснотија ја побива лагата и не ја толкува лагата.

Можеш цел ден да ме убедуваш дека Телемата се толкува само од Телемата и тоа нема ништо да промени. Таква тафтологија користат и адвентистите, кои сметаат дека Светото Писмо се толкувало со Светото Писмо.
Работата е што ти си трол, и единствена јака страна ти е глупоста.
 
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Horus
Horus the Child was born on December 25th and every day as Ra-Horakhti, Horus of the Two Horizons. His mother, Isis, was called the “Great Virgin” in the Temple of Seti I at Abydos. Sirius marks the birth of Horus the Elder, followed by the Three Kings of Orion. Horus leads 12 followers through the underworld. He baptizes or purifies the dead (CT Sp. 74) He dies and resurrects, per Diodorus Siculus (1.25.6), 1st cent. BCE.
Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th

The date of the birth of Horus according to some online sources is during the Egyptian month of Khoiak (which corresponds to our November month) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoiak . The Egyptian calendar had three seasons, each four months and 30 days/month. The season of Akhet is months (in Greek) Thot, Phaophi, Athyr, Khoiak; the season of Peret (or Winter) is months (in Greek) Tybi, Mekhir, Phamenoth, Pharmouthi; the season of Chemou (or Summer) is months (in Greek) Pakhon, Payni, Epiph, Mesor�. See online sources:Egyptian Festival Calender ; Egyptian calendar months and seasons ; Grand Festivals ; Festival Rituals. We also know where Horus was supposedly born (at Khemmis or Chemmis in the Nile Delta of northern Upper Egypt).

of the virgin Isis-Meri.

Wrong again. Her name was simply Isis (in Greek). Her true Egyptian name is transliterated simply A-s-e-t or 3st (all woman names in Egyptian end with the "t"). Her name (Aset) means "seat" or "throne" (Oxford Encyclopedia, vol 2, "Isis" p. 188) and "the goddess's name is written in hieroglyphs with a sign that represents a throne, indicating the crucial role that she plays in the transmission of the kingship of Egypt" (Hart, Routledge Dictionary, "Isis" p. 80).



And she definitely was not a virgin when she conceived Horus with the revivified Osiris, if these words mean anything: "[Osiris was] revived enough to have an erection and impregnate his wife" (Lesko, p. 162); "After having sexual intercourse..." (Dunand / Zivie-Coche, p. 39); "revivified the sexual member of Osiris and became pregnant by him" (Richard Wilkinson, p. 146); "revive the sexual powers of Osiris" (Pinch, p. 80).

A virgin birth, or more properly, a virginal conception, is by definition non-sexual.

His birth was accompanied by a star in the east

No evidence any stars are mentioned in the birth of Horus.

which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior

There are no "three kings" in the birth of Horus, and there are no "three kings" in the Bible either. Read Matthew 2 for yourself:

"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying, 'Where is he that is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.'" (Matthew 2:1-2 KJV)

They are not called "kings" but "wise men" -- and they are not three in number, we don't know how many there were. Three gifts are later mentioned (gold, frankincense, myrrh) in verse 11, and these were equated with the wise men. Perhaps we are thinking of the Christmas carol "We three kings of Orient are...." ? Nice tune and lyrics, but it's always best to cross-check with the biblical text.

Horus had 12 disciples he traveled about with


Horus had NO 12 disciples he traveled with: remember he became ruler of Egypt after a long battle with Seth. Perhaps you could call all the subjects in Egypt his "disciples" (which means followers).

There were technically the "Followers of Horus [son of Isis]" called the Shemsu Heru, mentioned in the Liturgy of Funeral Offerings and purification ceremony. These were a group of beings who were closely connected with Osiris, and having "followed" him in this world they passed after him into the Other World (of the dead), where they became his ministrants and messengers. There were also followers (a different group) of Horus the Elder called the Mesentiu who are "workers in metal" or blacksmiths (see The Liturgy of Funeral Offerings, the fourth ceremony, commentary by Budge).


Horus leads 12 followers through the underworld.

Horus was never sent to the underworld. That was Osiris who was killed and became lord of the underworld (i.e. the dead), while Horus was king of the living. In one version of the myth, Horus battles with Seth over an 80 year period, the earth-god Geb in a judgment awards the whole inheritance of Egypt to Horus, and Horus then becomes ruler of Egypt. From then on, the dead Egyptian king becomes an "Osiris", and his successor the living king is a "Horus." That is the primary meaning of the Horus-Seth battle myth. In the Egyptian Coffin Texts (Spell 148, quoted belove), Horus appears as a falcon who soars up into the sky beyond the flight of the original bird-soul, beyond the stars and all the divinities of olden time whose souls inhabit the constellations. In so doing he brings back light and the assurance of a new day, thus subduing Seth, who personifies the terrors of darkness and death.

A longer passage is from the Coffin Texts (Spell 148) which describes the birth and flight of Horus (as the Falcon god), and has further references to Osiris' "seed":

TAKING SHAPE AS A FALCON. The lightening flash strikes, the gods are afraid, Isis wakes pregnant with the seed of her brother Osiris. She is uplifted, (even she) the widow, and her heart is glad with the seed of her brother Osiris. She says:

"O you gods, I am Isis, the sister of Osiris, who wept for the father of the gods, (even) Osiris who judged the slaughterings of the Two Lands. His seed is within my womb, I have moulded the shape of the god within the egg as my son who is at the head of the Ennead. What he shall rule is this land, the heritage of his (grand-) father Geb, what he shall say is concerning his father, what he shall kill is Seth the enemy of his father Osiris. Come, you gods, protect him within my womb, for he is known in your hearts. He is your lord, this god who is in his egg, blue-haired of form, lord of the gods, and great and beautiful are the vanes [feathery part of plume as distinct from the stem] of the two blue plumes."

"Oh!" says Atum, "guard your heart, O woman!"

"[Isis says:] How do you know? He is the god, lord and heir of the Ennead, who made you within the egg. I am Isis, one more spirit-like and august than the gods; the god is within this womb of mine and he is the seed of Osiris."

Then says Atum: "You are pregnant and you are hidden [allusion to pregnant Isis hiding in the marshes of Chemmis], O girl! You will give birth, being pregnant for the gods, seeing that he is the seed of Osiris. May that villain who slew his father not come, lest he break the egg in its early stages, for the Great-of-Magic will guard against him."

Thus says Isis: "Hear this, you gods, which Atum, Lord of the Mansion of the Sacred Images, has said. He has decreed for me protection for my son within my womb, he has knit together an entourage about him within this womb of mine, for he [Atum] knows that he [Horus] is the heir of Osiris, and a guard over the Falcon who is in this womb of mine has been set by Atum, Lord of the gods. Go up on earth, that I may give you praise [said to the unborn Horus]. The retainers of your father Osiris will serve you, I will make your name, for you have reached the horizon, having passed by the battlements of the Mansion of Him whose name is hidden. Strength has gone up within my flesh, power has reached into my flesh, power has reached...." [there is a textual omission at this point]

"...who conveys the Sunshine-god, and he has prepared his own place, being seated at the head of the gods in the entourage of the Releaser." [unidentifiable speaker, probably either Isis or Atum]

"[Isis speaks to her son who has now been born:] O Falcon, my son Horus, dwell in this land of your father Osiris in this your name of Falcon who is on the battlements of the Mansion of Him whose name is hidden. I ask that you shall be always in the suite of Re of the horizon in the prow of the primeval bark for ever and ever."

Isis goes down to the Releaser who brings Horus, for Isis has asked that he may be the Releaser as the leader of eternity.

"See Horus, you gods! [Horus proclaims his power] I am Horus, the Falcon who is on the battlements of the Mansion of Him whose name is hidden. My flight aloft has reached the horizon, I have overpassed the gods of the sky, I have made my position more prominent than that of the Primeval Ones. The Contender [Seth] has not attained my first flight, my place is far from Seth, the enemy of my father Osiris. I have used the roads of eternity to the dawn, I go up in my flight, and there is no god who can do what I have done. I am aggressive against the enemy of my father Osiris, he having been set under my sandals in this my name of.... [meaning unknown]. I am Horus, born of Isis, whose protection was made within the egg; the fiery blast of your mouths does not attack me, and what you may say against me does not reach me, I am Horus, more distant of place than men or gods; I am Horus son of Isis."

(Egyptian Coffin Text, Spell 148, translation found in The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts, volume 1, p. 125-127, by R.O. Faulkner; another translation with commentary can be found in Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt by R.T. Rundle Clark, p. 213-217)

At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher

There is a form known as "Horus the Child" but he wasn't a prodigal teacher. He was kept hidden away by his mother, until he was ready to be ruler of Egypt. The young god was hidden in the papyrus marshes, hence his epithet Har-hery-wadj or "Horus who is upon his papyrus plants."

and at the age of 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry

No evidence of any baptism for Horus, and no evidence of any "ministry" of Horus. Anubis (or Anup or Anpu) means Royal Child, and is usually depicted as jackal-headed or a wild dog-headed man, or a reclining black jackal. Anubis was the great protector god, guiding the soul through the underworld. He was also the Lord of embalming, and through this is connected with incense and perfumery. No baptism here. (See The Jackal Headed God or Egyptian Animal Gods).

After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried for 3 days, and thus, resurrected.

Typhon is also known as Seth, his rival brother (or uncle). Horus was NOT crucified, was NOT buried for 3 days, and thus, was NOT resurrected. Your sources are wrong. In some versions of his battle with Seth, Horus had one or both of his eyes injured, but he was not killed. It was his father Osiris who was killed, dismembered, reconstituted, and revived by Isis, his magical mother.

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/HORUS.htm[DOUBLEPOST=1439544010][/DOUBLEPOST]


Attis
Attis is the “son of Cybele in her form as the virgin, Nana, who is impregnated by the divine force in the form of a pomegranate.” -Dr. David Leeming, University of Connecticut. The god is the “castrated and crucified Attis.” -Textual Strategies by Dr. Josué V. Harari “Each year, Attis was born at the winter solstice.” -Shirley Toulson “The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise.” Dr. Andrew Fear
Attis is the “son of Cybele in her form as the virgin, Nana, who is impregnated by the divine force in the form of a pomegranate.” -Dr. David Leeming, University of Connecticut.

The god is the “castrated and crucified Attis.” -Textual Strategies by Dr. Josué V. Harari

“The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise.”
Dr. Andrew Fear

In this longer Arnobius version, Attis' mother is Nana, the daughter of King Sangarius. She became pregnant and conceived Attis from a pomegranate fruit produced from the blood of Agdistis the fierce hunter, after an attempt by Liber to kill him. Endowed with extraordinary beauty, Attis became the favorite of Cybele along with Agdistis, both who were born from a huge rock called "Agdos." Attis dies from castration and the longer story ends like this:

"The Mother of the gods also shed bitter tears from which an almond tree sprang up, and then she took the sacred pine-tree, under which Attis had emasculated himself, into her den and joined the funeral laments of Agdistis, smiting her breasts and walking around the trunk of the tree. Agdistis begged Jupiter [or Zeus] to bring Attis back to life (revivisceret), but that was not permitted. Instead the god agreed that the body of Attis should not putrefy, that his hair should always grow and that his little finger should move for eternity. Satisfied with these favours, Agdistis consecrated the dead man's body to Pessinous and honoured him with yearly ceremonies and priestly services." (Lancellotti, page 4-5)

The complex mythology of Attis is irrelevant to the question of dying and rising deities. In the Phrygian version, Attis is killed by castration; in the Lydian version, he is killed by a boar. In neither case is there any question of his returning to life. Two late, post-Christian theological reflections on the myth hint at rebirth: the allegory in Naassene Sermon and the "euhemerist" account in Firmacus Maternus (third book of De errore profanarum religionum from the fourth century AD), in which a pretended resurrection is mentioned, although it is doubtful this ever played any part in the actual cult.

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm#Attis
 
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Mithra
Persians believe Mithra was born of the virgin goddess Anahita. “December 25th” is an ancient winter-solstice celebration. The ancient Persian winter-solstice festival of Yalda is still celebrated as the birthday of Mithra. Mithra’s 12 “disciples” are the zodiac signs that are his satellites. As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. Mithra ascended to heaven in his solar cart.
Persians believe Mithra was born of the virgin goddess Anahita.

The nature of the Iranian god as one of salvation can be inferred from myriad indications: in the Parthian epoch there existed a great syncretic myth of the Cosmocrator Redemptor, of which Mithra, born of a rock or out of a cave, was the protagonist. His rock-birth, later celebrated on December 25, was accompanied by special signs and luminous epiphanies taken as a symbol of royal initiation.

"The literary sources here are few but unmistakable: Mithras was known as the rock-born god. The inscriptions confirm this nomenclature: one even reads D(eo) O(omipotenti) S(oli) Invi(cto), Deo Genitori, r(upe) n(ato), 'To the almighty God Sun invincible, generative god, born from the rock'....Mithras also appears in the archaeological record as the rock-born god. Many images represent the god growing out of a rock with both arms raised aloft....After the bull-slaying, the rock-birth is the most frequently represented event of the myth, either as a detail on reliefs or, quite commonly, as a free-standing image." (Clauss, The Roman Cult of Mithras, page 62-63)

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm#Mithras

Mithra’s 12 “disciples” are the zodiac signs that are his satellites.

He had 12 companions or disciples.

I have seen this claim repeated a number of times, almost always (see below) without any documentation. (One of our readers wrote to Acharya asking for specific evidence of this one...she did not reply, although she had readily replied to a prior message.) The Iranian Mithras, as we have seen, did have a single companion (Varuna), and the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions, tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself, called Cautes and Cautopatres, that were perhaps meant to represent the sunrise and sunset (whereas "Big Daddy" Mithra was supposed to be noon), spring and autumn, the stars Albedaran and Antares [Beck.PO, 26] or life and death.

(Freke and Gandy attempt to link these twins to the two thieves crucified with Jesus! - Frek.JM, 51 - because one went to heaven with Jesus [torch up] and one went to hell [torch down]!) Mithra also had a number of animal companions: a snake, a dog, a lion, a scorpion -- but not 12 of them.

Now here's an irony. My one idea as to where they got this one was a picture of the bull-slaying scene carved in stone, found in Ulansey's book, that depicts the scene framed by 2 vertical rows with 6 pictures of what seem to be human figures or faces on each side. It occurred to me that some non-Mithraist perhaps saw this picture and said, "Ah ha, those 12 people must be companions or disciples! Just like Jesus!"

Days later I received Freke and Gandy's book, and sure enough -- that's how they make the connection. Indeed, they go as far as saying that during the Mirthaic initiation ceremony, Mithraic disciples dressed up as the signs of the zodiac and formed a circle around the initiate. [Frek.JM, 42] Where they (or rather, their source) get this information about the methods of Mithraic initiation, one can only guess: No Mithraic scholar seems aware of it, and their source, Godwin, is a specialist in "Western esoteric teaching" -- not a Mithraist, and it shows, because although writing in 1981, well after the first Mithraic congress, Godwin was still following Cumont's line that Iranian and Roman Mithraism were the same, and thus ended up offering interpretations of the bull-slaying scene that bear no resemblance to what Mithraic scholars today see in it at all.

To be fair, though, Freke and Gandy do not give the page number where Godwin supposedly says this -- and his material on Mithraism says nothing about any initiation ceremony. However, aside from the fact that this carving is (yet again!) significantly post-Christian (so that any borrowing would have had to be the other way around), these figures have been identified by modern Mithraic scholars as representing zodiacal symbols. Indeed, the top two faces are supposed to be the sun and the moon!



Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace

As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

This description is rather spun out into a sound-alike of Christian belief, but behind the vagueness lies a different story. Mithra did not "sacrifice himself" in the sense that he died; he was not the "great bull of the Sun", but rather, he killed the bull (attempts to somehow identify Mithra with the very bull he slayed, although popular with outdated non-Mithraists like Loisy and Bunsen, were rejected by Vermaseren, who said that "neither the temples nor the inscriptions give any definite evidence to support this view and only future finds can confirm it" [Verm.MSG, 103]; it was not for the sake of "world peace" (except, perhaps, in the sense that Cumont interpreted the bull-slaying as a creation myth [Cum.MM, 193], in which he was entirely wrong).

Mithra could only be said to have "sacrificed himself" in the sense that he went out and took a risk to do a heroic deed; the rest finds no justification at all in modern Mithraic studies literature -- much less does it entail a parallel to Christ, who sacrificed himself for atonement from personal sin (not "world peace").

http://tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.php[DOUBLEPOST=1439549107][/DOUBLEPOST]
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Virgin Birth
According to the most common tradition, Dionysus was the son of the god Zeus and the mortal woman Semele. In the Cretan version of the same story, which the pre-Christian Greek historian Diodorus Siculus follows, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the daughter of Demeter also called Kore, who is styled a "virgin goddess."

In the common myth about the birth of Dionysus/Bacchus, Semele is mysteriously impregnated by one of Zeus's bolts of lightning--an obvious miraculous/virgin conception.
Навистина очигледно, нема што!

I. THE BIRTH OF DIONYSUS

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 26 - 28 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Zeus fell in love with Semele and slept with her, promising her anything she wanted, and keeping it all from Hera. But Semele was deceived by Hera into asking Zeus to come to her as he came to Hera during their courtship. So Zeus, unable to refuse, arrived in her bridal chamber in a chariot with lightning flashes and thunder, and sent a thunderbolt at her. Semele died of fright, and Zeus grabbed from the fire her six-month aborted baby, which he sewed into his thigh. After Semele's death the remaining daughters of Kadmos (Cadmus) circulated the story that she had slept with a mortal, thereafter accusing Zeus, and because of this had been killed by a thunderbolt. At the proper time Zeus loosened the stitches and gave birth to Dionysos, whom he entrusted to Hermes."

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Dionysos.html

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DionysosMyths.html#Birth[DOUBLEPOST=1439549968][/DOUBLEPOST]
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Epithets
In an Orphic hymn, Phanes-Dionysus is styled by the Greek title Protogonos or "first-born" of Zeus, also translated at times as "only-begotten son," although the term Monogenes would be more appropriately rendered as the latter. He is also called "Soter" or "Savior" in various inscriptions, including a bronze coin from the Thracian city of Maroneia dating to circa 400-350 BCE.[3] Like Jesus in his aspect as the Father, Dionysus is called Pater, or "father" in Greek.

"Dionysus is 'first-born,' 'Savior' and 'Father.'"

The title "King of Kings" and other epithets may reflect Dionysus's kinship with Osiris: During the late 18th to early 19th dynasties (c. 1300 BCE), Osiris's epithets included, "the king of eternity, the lord of everlastingness, who traverseth millions of years in the duration of his life, the firstborn son of the womb of Nut, begotten of Seb, the prince of gods and men, the god of gods, the king of kings, the lord of lords, the prince of princes, the governor of the world whose existence is for everlasting." (Budge, liii)
Mислиш дека Дионис бил единороден син на Зевс!? Знаеш ли ти Зевс колку љубовници, синови и ќерки имал? Читаш ли ти воопшто пред да постираш или постираш од ракав?

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html

He was called "King of Kings" and "God of Gods."
Was he? If so, it was some strange cult-title. The only regular king of kings was Zeus, 'pater andron te theon te', as Homer calls him, though some Homeric goddesses are 'dia theaon' (which *may* mean 'goddess of goddesses').
He was considered the "only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin Bearer," "Anointed One" and the "Alpha and Omega."
Other critics add the title "Lord God of God born" and second the title of "savior," saying, "His followers call to him: 'Come, thou savior.'"[28]
The title "Lord God of God born" is referenced to page 444 of Harrison's book [Harr.PGR] – but it is not there. The Bacchae has Dionysus's followers saying at his appearance, "We are saved!" -- but the critics do not answer the needed question, "Saved from what?" In the context, it is "salvation" from Pentheus' ire. It isn't personal sin that Dionysus saves from, and may not have even been hellfire or damnation.

Cole, after a study of the grave inscriptions of Dionysus worshippers, points out that Dionysus "is not a savior who promises his worshippers regeneration, but with the stories of his own rebirth and rejuvenation, he is one who makes this life more sweet and the next one, perhaps, only a little less harsh." [Col.VFG, 295]

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/dionysus.php[DOUBLEPOST=1439550639][/DOUBLEPOST]
Ipsissimus напиша:
Death/Resurrection
Dionysus's death and resurrection were famous in ancient times, so much so that Christian father Origen (c. 184-c. 254) felt the need to address them in his Contra Celsus (IV, XVI-XVII), comparing them unfavorably, of course, to those of Christ. By Origen's time, these Dionysian mysteries had already been celebrated for centuries. Dionysus/Bacchus's resurrection or revival after having been torn to pieces or otherwise killed earned him the epithet of "twice born."
Dionysus as an infant was set upon Zeus' throne (a sacred king?) to play at being Master of the Universe, and as he sat there, some of the Titans (bad boys of Greek mythology) snuck up with some toys and distracted him.

While Dionysus was thus distracted, the Titans picked him up, tore him to pieces (killed), and boiled and roasted everything but his heart and ate it (eaten -- in a eucharistic ritual?!?).
When Zeus got wind of this, he became ticked off as he often did, and blew the Titans to smithereens. As the story goes in a later version, from the ashes of the Titans came forth the race of men (fecundity?). Dionysus himself was "eventually restored to a new life" from the heart that was left over. [ibid., Eva.GE, 153; Det.DS, 71]

Frazer [Fraz.GB, 323] did try to piece together such a story of resurrection, first by appealing to a version of the Titan story in which Apollo (or Rhea), at the command of Zeus, reassembled the pieces and buried them. Frazer goes on to say that "the resurrection of the slain god is not mentioned, but in other versions of the myth it is variously related"! How? Well, in one version, which has Dionysus as son of Demeter, momma reassembles the pieces and makes Dionysus young again (our scholar calls this "an eccentric minority variant"). In others, "it is simply said that shortly after his burial he rose from the dead [in what form?] and ascended up to heaven, or that Zeus raised him up as he lay mortally wounded, or that Zeus swallowed the heart of Dionysus and then begat him afresh by Semele...[or] the heart was pounded up and given in a potion to Semele, who thereby conceived him."

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/dionysus.php[DOUBLEPOST=1439566442][/DOUBLEPOST]
Ipsissimus напиша:
Најголемата приказна некогаш раскажана? Приказна (измислица) и тоа прилично злонамерна. Не очекував од тебе да ми постираш псевдоисторија.



На левата страна се наоѓаат 44 конкретни кадри од филмот, а на десната - 118 негирања од 30 автори.

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