Македонскиот Цар Самоил

[nitkov]

Тук нај-после заслужаваш поздравление! Този цитат е точен и е нај-добре да се дискутира така. Ето и оште един подобен извор:

"1041 >From the Annals of Bari: "...he had already written to Sicily from where the unfortunate Macedonians, Paulicians and Calbrians arrived." G.H. Pertz, Annales Barenses, Monumenta Germaniae historica, Scriptores V, p.53."

can you translate this please ?

 

[icel]

Shteta ne vi se bendisa citatot od Ana Komnena, iako tochen. :cry:

Бандиса! Как да не бандиса.

Bez zezanje sega, Ana Komnena ubavo go opisuva osnovnoto naselenie vo 12 vek:

"Od dvete strani na planinata (Balkan) ziveat razlicni narodi. Na severnata strana ziveat Dakijcite i Trakijcite, dodeka na juznata Trakijcite i Makedoncite".

(Ana Comnenae, "Alexiad", Kniga XIV, str.) 8)

Ева уште малце Ана Комнина:

Anna Comnena, The Alexiad: Complete Text (beginning of 12th century)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad00.html

"...But from the time that Mocrus, King of the Bulgarians, and his descendants, and finally Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty ..."

Е тогаш Самуил и народот му не от тиа македонци за кои зборува Ана Комнина. Bulgarians' of Samuel vs Macedoncite.

 

[nitkov]

Sorry, pogresio sam, krivi citat sam postirao. Mislio sam da mi prevedesh ovaj citat:

Annales Lupi Protospatharii:

1027. Despotus Nicus in Italiam descendit cum ingentibus copiis Russorum, Wandalorum, Turcarum, Bulgarorum, Brunchorum, Polonorum, Macedonum, aliarumque nationum, ad Siciliam capiendam.

thisone i ment. can you translate this?

 

[Misirkov]

Ева уште малце Ана Комнина:

Anna Comnena, The Alexiad: Complete Text (beginning of 12th century)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad00.html

"...But from the time that Mocrus, King of the Bulgarians, and his descendants, and finally Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty ..."

Е тогаш Самуил и народот му не от тиа македонци за кои зборува Ана Комнина. Bulgarians' of Samuel vs Macedoncite.

Zhalam slucaj, dodeka Ana Komnena tocno identifikuva Makedonci vo toa vreme, taa greshi za Samoil. Shodno tezata za navodno Zapadno Bugarsko Carstvo odnosno bugarska dinastija e otfrlena denes od istorichartite.

Ako zememe bugarski izvori kako na pr. "Zografskata istorija" -- koja se smeta za vtoro po znacenje bugarsko istorisko delo od ponovata istorija --vo vska so otstapuvanjeto na Car David od prestolot (vo polza na Samuil) pishuva:

"...Bidejkji makedonskite gospoda ne mozea da go trpat mirot, pochnaa losho da zboruvaat protiv (David). Toj razbra za toa, samovolno go ostavi carstvoto i otide v manastir."

(prevzemeno od Sarisa Paraos, v. "Narodna volja", br. 6, 1996).

 

[what is macedonian]

Annales Lupi Protospatharii:

1027. Despotus Nicus in Italiam descendit cum ingentibus copiis Russorum, Wandalorum, Turcarum, Bulgarorum, Brunchorum, Polonorum, Macedonum, aliarumque nationum, ad Siciliam capiendam.

thisone i ment. can you translate this?

Despota the Nico has come down in Italy with numerous military services of Russians, Vandali, Turks, Bulgarians, Brunchi, Poloni, Macedonians and of other nations, in order to conquer the Sicily. And moreover it has been conquered Reggio, and for guilt of the citizens, Volcano was destroyed from the Catapano. And in according to year Basilio emperor is died. Therefore the Greeks in the day of Saint Martino are themselves withdraw to you. Already truly Basilio, when it was while still alive has rinunziato to the Empire, replacing to Roman himself, to which it gave in moglie the Zoe daughter.

 

[icel]

Zhalam slucaj, dodeka Ana Komnena tocno identifikuva Makedonci vo toa vreme, taa greshi za Samoil.

Идентификува Ана Комнина македонци, ама не идентификува Самуил и царството му с тија македонци, а с б'лгари... Македонците са едно, б'лгарите - друго.

А да... забравих, она "грешала", както "грешат" сите хроничари от онија времена (Michael Psellus, John Skylitza, Попа от Дуклја...), както "греши" и Василиј II, както греши и племенника на Самуил. А тогаш вие ОТ КОј знаете, че Самуил е македонец, а царството му македонско, кога историческите извори велјат друго? :shock:

 

[icel]

Shodno tezata za navodno Zapadno Bugarsko Carstvo odnosno bugarska dinastija e otfrlena denes od istorichartite.

Сака ти се...

THE LEGEND OF BASIL THE BULGAR-SLAYER
Paul Stephenson, Department of History, University of Wisconsin - Madison, and Dumbarton
http://homepage.mac.com/paulstephenson/research/bulgarslayer.html
“…The study begins with an analysis of Basil's achievement in the Balkans. It re-evaluates Basil's wars, suggests that he was as much peacemaker as warmonger, and that it was never his intention to eliminate the independent medieval realm of Bulgaria (not Macedonia)…”

Oscar Halecki, History of East Central Europe
PART II - THE MEDIEVAL TRADITION
4 THE HERITAGE OF THE TENTH CENTURY
THE WESTERN SLAVS
http://historicaltextarchive.com/books.php?op=viewbook&bookid=1&cid=4
“…The result was the occupation of Eastern Bulgaria by the Greeks. A new leader, King Samuel, however, appeared in the western part of the country. He resumed Simeon’s struggle against the empire and opposed it for more than thirty years.
That long Greek-Bulgarian war is one of the decisive events in the history of the Balkan Peninsula. ... In its first phase it was a defensive war of Byzantium against Samuel’s invasions which reached the Adriatic and the Aegean seas. But Bulgaria paid a heavy price for these renewed imperial ambitions. Emperor Basil II, called the “killer of the Bulgarians,” in 1014 finally inflicted upon them a crushing defeat, and Samuel himself died when thousands of captives were sent back to him with their eyes gouged. Such cruelty of course exasperated the Bulgarians, who continued to resist in the Balkan Mountains for four more years. But by 1018 their whole country was conquered and again made a mere province of the Greek Empire… “


Henry Bogdan: From Warsaw To Sofia
Chapter 4 - The Birth of Nation States (10th--13th Centuries)
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/bogdan/bogdan04.htm
“…Bulgaria was momentarily weakened, but with Prince Samuel (976-1014), the Bulgars rose again from their political and cultural center at Ochrid.... Byzantine reaction under Emperor Basil II (976-1025), was brutal. After long and hard campaigns, Basil crushed the Bulgar army in July 1014. Thousands of Bulgar soldiers were blinded by order of the emperor and sent back to Tsar Samuel. The attempt to create an independent Bulgar empire in defiance of Byzantium had failed.…”

 

[icel]

ево како описује василијеву офанзиву против самуила:

Leo the Deacon: "...since they robbed the region of the Macedoniansmercilessly, destroying all adults." Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864 ... p. 311

значи василије је отишао код македонаца и почео убијати одрасле македонце. значи самуилови војници су били македонци

Oh really? :shock: К'де в цитата, којто си дал пише, че това е Василиевата офанзива срешту Самуил? А не е ли баш обратното? Самуиловите лјуде ограбвали региона на македонците, т.е. тема Македонија/Одринско/ от к'де между другото е Василиј II. (Basil II the Macedonian ). Както при Ана Комнина - македонците са едно, Самуил и војската му - друго.

 

[Misirkov]

Yeah really, so povrshno frlanje prashina vo ochi -- sto vi e chesta propagandna taktika vo otsustvo na sodrzhina -- nema daleku da stignes.

Ana Komnena go konstatira ona sto mnogumina i pred i po nea konstatirale -- deka Makedoncite prodolzile da prebivaat vo svojata tatkovina Makedonija i poshiroko. Primer, Nicephorus Bryennius pishuva za vladeenjeto na Jovan Komnen vo sredinata na 11 vek:

"When Ioannis obtained the rule of the West, as we have already said, for his deeds he left indelible memories among Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, and Slavs."

So samoto postoenje na Makedonci vo sredniot vek -- fakt shto vie go negirate -- padja vo voda vashata teza deka demek nemalo Makedonci.
Shodno, odite na Plan B -- etnickata pripadnost na Samoil i/ili negovoto carstvo kako del od Bugarskoto, a dvete se otfrleni.

Fakt e deka nieden srednovekoven izvor ne go narekuva carstvoto na Samoil - Bugarija! Naprotiv, srednovekovnite izvori kako Jovan Zonara ili Lav Djakon go narekuvaat carstvoto SKLAVINIJA i toa e locirano so centar vo Makedonija so dobra pricina - bidejkji ne e bugarsko.

G. Ostrogorski, zemajkji gi vo predvid izvorite sto gi davas pogore i teoriite sto tie gi rodile (na Stefan Taronski i na N.P. Blegmov - "Teoriyata na zapadnoto bulgarsko carstvo"), veli deka ne e definitivno utvrdena etnickata pripadnost na Samoil. No Ostrogorski decidno otfrla deka Samoil e Bugar ili Ermenec:

"...it remains doubtful how much weight can be given to the statement of of this Armenian historian whose information on Samuel is full of errors...Blegmov considers that Count Nikola was a descendant of the proto-Bulgar Asparuch, and his wife Ripsimia, the mother of Cometopuli, a doughter of Tsar Simeon - which is entirely without foundation. His "Teoriyata na zapadnoto bulgarsko carstvo" contains equally fantastic views."

(George Ostrogorsky, "Origin and Ethnicity of Car Samuel," History of the Byzantine State, Rutgers University Press 1969, p. 301-302).

 

[Misirkov]

Oscar Halecki, History of East Central Europe
PART II - THE MEDIEVAL TRADITION
4 THE HERITAGE OF THE TENTH CENTURY
THE WESTERN SLAVS
http://historicaltextarchive.com/books.php?op=viewbook&bookid=1&cid=4

“…The result was the occupation of Eastern Bulgaria by the Greeks. A new leader, King Samuel, however, appeared in the western part of the country. He resumed Simeon’s struggle against the empire and opposed it for more than thirty years.
That long Greek-Bulgarian war is one of the decisive events in the history of the Balkan Peninsula. ... In its first phase it was a defensive war of Byzantium against Samuel’s invasions which reached the Adriatic and the Aegean seas. But Bulgaria paid a heavy price for these renewed imperial ambitions. Emperor Basil II, called the “killer of the Bulgarians,” in 1014 finally inflicted upon them a crushing defeat, and Samuel himself died when thousands of captives were sent back to him with their eyes gouged. Such cruelty of course exasperated the Bulgarians, who continued to resist in the Balkan Mountains for four more years. But by 1018 their whole country was conquered and again made a mere province of the Greek Empire… “

Vo primerive ne se pocituvaat osnovni poimi: na primer Halecki zboruva za Grci i Bugari?! :lol: :lol: Toa e isto kako bugarskata plocha-falsifikat vo koja za Samoil kako turko-Bugar se posmenuva Grcija hihihi.

"...The history of the origin of Samuel's empire is a much debated question. Scholars no longer support Drinov's theory of a West Bulgarian empire of the Sigmanids founded in 963, and today two different and conflicting views are current.

One view holds that by 969 a West Bulgarian (Macedonian) kingdom under the Cometopuli had split off from the empire of the tzar Peter and that this existed independently side by side with the East Bulgarian empire (on the Danube) ; further, they consider that it was on the eastern part which was conquered by Tzimisces, while the western part continued and formed the nucleus of Samuel's empire.

The second view, worked out in detail by D. Anastasijevic, 'L'hypothese de la Bulgaric Occidentale', Recueil Uspenskij I (1930), 20 ff., insists that there was no separation between an eastern and western Bulgaria, and that Tzimisces conquered the whole of Bulgaria which only regained its independence with the Cometopuli's revolt in 976 and the foundation of a new empire in Macedonia.

This latter interpretation seems to me to be in the main correct, though both theories appear to go astray in so far as they imply that the subjection of the country took the form of a regular occupation of the whole countryside. Anastasijevic rightly emphasizes that the sources give practically no ground for the assumption that an independent West Bulgaria ever existed side by side with an East Bulgaria, and they afford equally slight evidence for the statement that there was a revolt of the Cometopuli before 976.

The frequently quoted statement in Scylitzes-Cedren. II, 347, dated rather arbitrarily to the year 969 and equally arbitrarily regarded as an account of a revolt of the Cometopuli said to have broken out in this year, is in reality only a casual comment, by way of an aside, which anticipates the events it refers to (cf. the doubts of Runciman, Bulgarian Empire 218, and Adontz, 'Samuel I'Armenien', 5 ff.).

On the other hand, the sources make it quite clear that Tzimisces-like Sviatoslav-never set foot in Macedonia (the entirely unsupported statement of the later Priest of Dioclea who says that Tzimisces took possession of Serbia, and consequently Macedonia as well, is of no importance). The capture of the capital and the deposition of the ruler signified the subjection of the country without any need to conquer its territory inch by inch. It is, however, true that control which was limited to occupying the centre could in certain circumstances easily be overthrown from the periphery, and this was in fact what happened after the death of John Tzimisces and the outbreak of internal conflicts in Byzantium. This problem has been recently discussed by Litavrin, Bolgarya i Vizantija 26 I ff., who does not, however, advance any new or compelling arguments for the view he adopts, i.e. that 'Bulgaria continued its existence in the West'. He concludes: 'The period from 969 to 976 was in Western Bulgaria a time when its forces were consolidated under the rule of the Cometopuli. . . .' But, as our observations above make clear, this assertion has not the slightest foundation in the sources..."

George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Rutgers University Press 1969, (p.302), 1969.

 

[Serdarot]

Basil is called Voulgaroktonos

NELI CELO VREME TVRDITE DEKA Ima Razlika megju Vulgar i B´lgar

shto ubival Basil (Vasilij)???

vulgari ili bulgari?

nikade ne najdov da stoi Basil ili Vasilis Bulgaroktonos tuku sekade Voulgaroktonos

a deka lugjeto shto ne bile pod Uprava na Vizantija se smetale za "Vulgari" e fakt

ajt sea v upravata na SMD da barate napatstvija kakvo da krakate :wink:

 

[icel]

Yeah really, so povrshno frlanje prashina vo ochi -- sto vi e chesta propagandna taktika vo otsustvo na sodrzhina -- nema daleku da stignes.

ха ха ха Пропагандна тактика е кога цитирате изв'н контекст и после ДОБАВјаТЕ интерпретации како ви хареса. Много сте добри во ова. Цитат'т от Л'в Дјакон е точно так'в!

Ana Komnena go konstatira ona sto mnogumina i pred i po nea konstatirale -- deka Makedoncite prodolzile da prebivaat vo svojata tatkovina Makedonija i poshiroko.

Ана Комнина както и много други, вклјучителнно и Л'в Дјакон, констатират, че македонци (от темата Македонија, која нјама НИШТО ЗАЕДНИЧКО со днешната Македонија) са едно, а народот и царството на Самуил - с'всем друго. Никој не пише, че царството на Самуил е македонско, а војската му е от македонци!!!!

Primer, Nicephorus Bryennius pishuva za vladeenjeto na Jovan Komnen vo sredinata na 11 vek:

"When Ioannis obtained the rule of the West, as we have already said, for his deeds he left indelible memories among Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, and Slavs."

Е и??? Нјак'де нешто за Самуил да пише????

So samoto postoenje na Makedonci vo sredniot vek -- fakt shto vie go negirate -- padja vo voda vashata teza deka demek nemalo Makedonci.

Дори да приемем, че имало народ македонци во Средниот век (а не, че са лјудете обитавали с'ответната византијска тема), то пак НИКОј не св'рзва тези македонци с'с Самуил и неговото царстово. НАПРОТИВ! И при Ана Комнина и при Л'в Дјакон и т.н. македонците са едно, Самуил, армијата му, народ'т му - друго.

Shodno, odite na Plan B -- etnickata pripadnost na Samoil i/ili negovoto carstvo kako del od Bugarskoto, a dvete se otfrleni.

Етническата припадност на Самуил е отделен в'прос... А иначе едно е да ти се сака царството му да не е б'лгарско, друго е наистина да е отфрлено. Едно е да четеш вашите пропагандни уеб сајтове които да тв'рдјат, че уж било отфрлено, друго е да четеш актуални нови публикации на чужди с'временни историчари като примерно С'рджан Пириватрич (http://www.books.bg/book.php?ISBN=9545400201) или Пол Стефансон (http://www.abbeys.com.au/items.asp?id=251041).

Fakt e deka nieden srednovekoven izvor ne go narekuva carstvoto na Samoil - Bugarija!

ха ха ха Да бе. Скилица, Пселос, Ана Комнина, Попа от Дјуклја, грамотите на Василиј II са никој.

Naprotiv, srednovekovnite izvori kako Jovan Zonara ili Lav Djakon go narekuvaat carstvoto SKLAVINIJA i toa e locirano so centar vo Makedonija so dobra pricina - bidejkji ne e bugarsko.

Обичам пропагандата в'здух под налјагане Добре, че не рече, че царството се наричало Македонија. Заштото нема НИ ЕДИН извор, којто да го нарича Македонија. НИКОј не св'рзва македонците с'с Сасмуиловото Царство, но п'к не един и двама хроничари го св'рзват с б'лгарите.

G. Ostrogorski, zemajkji gi vo predvid izvorite sto gi davas pogore i teoriite sto tie gi rodile (na Stefan Taronski i na N.P. Blegmov - "Teoriyata na zapadnoto bulgarsko carstvo"), veli deka ne e definitivno utvrdena etnickata pripadnost na Samoil.

Да, етническата припадност не е известна, но е известно, че е коронован като б'лгарски цар, а не македонски, царството му е б'лгарско, а не македонско, војската му е б'лгарска, а не македонска.

 

[icel]

shto ubival Basil (Vasilij)???

vulgari ili bulgari? :

Всеки случај не убивал македонци.
А за да не се б'ркаш с гр'цкија правопис, ето ти на "славјански" да видиш кој точно убивал.

Манасиевата хроника:

П.С. Ако не можеш да го разчетеш свиркај - ште ти помогна.

 

[Misirkov]

....македонци (от темата Македонија, која нјама НИШТО ЗАЕДНИЧКО со днешната Македонија)....Никој не пише, че царството на Самуил е македонско, а војската му е от македонци!!!!

Naprotiv, Lav Djakon pishuva deka vojskata na Samoil e sostavena od "odredi of Makedonci." A istite takvi Makedonci od makedonskata falanga, spored Skilica, se inkorporirani vo vojskata na Vasilij II so koja falanga ja opustoshil Prespa (citat spored Stjepan Antoljak, "Srednovekovna Makedonija", Skopje 1985, str. 212). Znaci pripadnici na eden narod na dve strani t.e. se borat za dve drzavi. Slicno kako sudirot medju Makedoncite Ptolomei i Seleukidi.

I kakva shto ima toa vrska so Samoil i negovoto carstvo prashuvash?
Pa ne e nebitno za edno heterogeno carstvo locirano so centar vo Makedonija da ima etnicki Makedonci, neli? :lol: A mnogu e bitno koga turko-bugarskata teorija tvrdi deka demek nemalo Makedonci t.e. deka tie bile "geografsko ponjatie" ili samo bile "clenovi" na temata Makedonija. I so toa teoretizira deka demek Samuilovoto carstvo e bugarsko, a Vizantija grcka. :lol: :lol:

Da te potsetam, Lav Djakon eksplicitno veli deka podanicite na Samoilovoto carstvo se: "Makedonci, Mizi, Skiti i Bugari."

Upravo toa postoenje na Makedonci -- kako vo citatot pogore od Jovan Komnen od 11 vek -- ti ja rushi kulata od karti. Makedonci se Makedonci bilo da se tie vo deneshna Makedonija ili del od niv bile iseleni vo temata Makedonija.

Samoilovoto Carstvo e nareceno Sklavinija od togashni, ne od podocnezhni, izvori. Minijaturata na Germanskiot Kral Henri e eden dokaz za 4te doimnantni drzavi togas od koi edna e Sklavinija, a drug e Jovan Djakon.

 

[Misirkov]

Етническата припадност на Самуил е отделен в'прос... Да, етническата припадност не е известна

Da de, zatoa vie edno cuhdo kameni plochi isfalsifikuvavte za "dokazhete" deka Samoil demek bil "Bugarin po rod". Eve i denes, 17 ti maj, sud vo Bugarija odlucil deka kamenot ne bil falsifikuvan. :lol: :lol: :lol: Vakov cirkus ima samo vo Bugarija:

http://www.segabg.com/20042004/p0020015.asp

"Граничните кам'ни са били поставјани в'рху мраморни колони крај в'злови п'тишта, имали са далеч по-голјам размер и јасен шрифт. Те са указвали, че това е граница между ромеи и б'лгари, че са издигнати през конкретна година по заповед на владетелја. До този момент са открити четири подобни гранични кам'ка.

Веројатно в ранните години на турското робство родолјубиви монаси са дописали станалија популјарен през последнија месец кам'к, предположи проф. Димитров. Основната част от надписа е оригинална - буквите в'рху него са изд'лбани наистина през 11-и век, но тој не е граничен и в него не се говори за починалија от с'рдечен удар през 1014 г. цар Самуил. Това бе доказано от тројна научна експертиза, изв'ршена от акад. Васил Гјузелев от Софијскија университет "Св. Климент Охридски", професор'т палеограф Казимир Попконстантинов от Великот'рновскија университет "Кирил и Методиј " и археолог'т проф. Станислав Станилов от Института по археологија."

"Стамен обаче зајави, че сам е изд'лбал надписа." :lol: :lol: :lol:

"Задочнијат спор се разрази по повод опитите на Кирил Гр'нчаров да докаже автентичността на плочата."

"След изслушването и на последната експертиза по делото, изготвена от историка Кирил Гр'нчаров"......