Хеленизмот - Европска измислица од 18 век

Член од
7 мај 2005
Поени од реакции
Avtorot objasnuva (i toa dosta kritichki) kako evropskiot romantizam go zemal klasicniot period, go narekol "grcki" i si izmislil svoja verzija na Grci/Helenizam za svoi dnevno-politichki potrebi. Ova otkako evropjanite bile razocarani od rezultatite na Francuskata revolucija i barale nacin da si go oformat svojot identitet nasproti "primitivniot" Orient.

Germanskite dejci se tvorci na vakvite romantichni verzii na neo-helenizmot. Indikativen e citatot na Humbolt podole deka taa "istorija" bila nadvor od normalnoto gledanje na drugite nastani na istoriskata nauka.

Borbata na atinjanite protiv Osmanliite samo se sovpadnala so ovaa evropska pojava vo 19 vek i atinjanite dobro ja iskoristile za svoi potrebi. Vprocem, zaradi tie romantichni ubeduvanja vo Germanija i Britanija, tie drzavi gi podpomagaat atinjanite da stvorat svoja drzava. Germanecot Oto e prviot "Kral na Helenite", a verzija na pruskoto zname stanuva "grcki" nacionalen simbol do den denes.

Postiranoto e za da vidite kakva e osnovata na EU i vrz kakvi se iluzii se bazira odnosot na "Evropa" sprema Makedonija, odnosno sto mozeme da ocekuvame od niv ako vrz neo-helenizmot si go gradat identitetot.

"We are all Greeks," said Percy Shelley. While historians may question whether, in the idealized cultural vision of Shelley's day, even the Greeks were ever really Greeks, the poet nevertheless expresses a powerful conceit, and one that provides an important context for the subject of Max Bruch's oratorio.

That modern civilization considers many of its greatest achievements to be refinements of classical culture is evident in the markers of historical continuity that surround us still–the architecture of educational and governmental institutions, the language of medicine, the use of myths like Oedipus through which we explain ourselves. Indeed, our reverence for Greek accomplishment is so embedded in our current experience and education, that we might easily forget that the idea of Greece as the birthplace of civilization is really only about two hundred years old. The notion was developed through the course of the nineteenth century, when circumstances in Europe determined the need for an appropriate history and genealogy.

This is not to say that classical culture was not always a fertile imaginative archetype in European thought. Aristotelian philosophy dominated the Roman Church for centuries, and when Europe discovered classical art and literature already known to the Arabs, it sparked a movement known as the Renaissance. An education in ancient literatures and languages was standard for the princes of Europe throughout the sixteenth century and seventeenth centuries, and shortly after that, the Baroque era was ushered in by the so-called "neoclassicists," who believed their historical mission to be the reinvention in orderly fashion of the best social and artistic elements of the ancient world.

But it was not until after the French Revolution effectively ended the Baroque era that an eruption occurred–sometimes referred to as "Hellenomania"–when the shade of Greece began to materialize into its present embodiment as cultural fountainhead. At this point, just when Europeans were anxiously pondering their future, a series of events occurred that inflamed their imaginations about their genealogical past.

Not the least of these were the advancements made in the understanding of Greek philology and art. For the first time, linguists were able to clarify the relation of ancient Greek to modern European languages. This was particularly interesting to the Germans, who immediately noticed specific similarities between Greek and their own language. Earlier, the sculptor Johann Joachim Winckelmann, influenced by the English Lord Shaftesbury, had written an influential treatise reevaluating Greek art, Thoughts on the Imitation of Greek Works in Painting and Sculpture, which was followed by a famous essay of his student, Gotthold Ephraim Lessing, entitled Laocon. Additionally, in 1807, Lord Elgin brought the friezes of the Parthenon to England, where multitudes of Europeans marveled at them. And, as interest mounted in this ancient culture, the Greek War of Independence broke out in 1821, striking a blow for the ancients against the "degenerative influence" of the "Orientals."

It should not surprise us that the first important thinkers to embrace the new Hellenism were the German and English Romantics. We are sometimes prone to think that, in their rejection of the works of the previous age, which they saw as mired in slavish adulation of the classics, the Romantics rejected classicism in favor of nature. But it is far more accurate to say that they rejected the Latinate imitations of eighteenth-century artists as a corruption of Greek principles. For them, the recovery of Greek culture unadorned with Augustan frills was firmly associated with a sloughing off of the old ways–the initial optimism of revolutionary times.

The shift from Roman reason to Greek sentiment is reflected in the shifting attitudes toward the perceived father of Greek literature, Homer. Pope translated Homer's epics, but considered Virgil and Horace far superior to the crude Greek. Goethe, however, declared Homer his favorite author, and while touring classical sites, contemplated (but never wrote) a play about Odysseus. Keats's admiration for Homer and the Greeks is evident throughout his work, including two of his most famous poems, "On First Looking into Chapman's Homer" and "Ode on a Grecian Urn." Shelley planned to travel to the land of Homer but was prevented by his untimely death. Byron did travel there, and met his own untimely death on his way to fight for the Greeks.

For the Romantics, then, Greek culture symbolized beauty, liberty, and republicanism. As a symbol, Greece did not impart such notions as much as become invested with them by nineteenth-century thinkers. Ancient Greece, in other words, was appropriated and variously interpreted to serve contemporary ends.

This is apparent in what happened to the image of the Greeks later in the century. Disillusionment with the French Revolution by no means lessened the Europeans' fervor for all things Greek. Instead, Europe merely refashioned the Greeks to suit the changing times. For the German philologist Wilhelm von Humboldt, ancient Greece represented anything but revolution. As Minister of Education, he established the Altertumswissenshaft, the Science of Antiquity (or as its English counterpart was called, the discipline of Classics). Humboldt saw the study of classics as a means of educational reform and social unification that avoided both the destruction of revolution and the oppressive domination of the Roman church. It was a secular alternative that appealed to the Germans, who already felt a special connection to the Greeks linguistically.

Humboldt extended this relation to encompass culture: "Our study of Greek history is therefore a matter quite different from our other historical studies. For us the Greeks step out of the circle of history. Knowledge of the Greeks is not merely pleasant, useful or necessary to us–no, in the Greeks alone we find the ideal of that which we should like to be and to produce." To small fragmented states rapidly industrializing, where economic unity was becoming a necessity, Humboldt offered a wondrous vision of a Germany culturally united as heir apparent to the Greeks, ensuring the succession of the glory of the ancients. For the Romantics, the primary figure of Greek lore was Prometheus, the suffering genius bringing fire to the common people. In the latter part of the century, another figure predominated–the wandering, exiled king, the rightful ruler who puts his house in order: Odysseus.

What the eminently adaptable image of ancient Greece offered nineteenth-century Europe, then, was an identity, a means by which Europeans could interpret their past, evaluate their present, and propose their destiny. The Greeks afforded Europe a prolific source of cultural definition. Wagner may have looked north for such definition, but Bruch looked south, and he was not alone. For the Germans, the achievements of Greek culture was a powerful model for their own national identity–regardless of actual circumstances. In 1871, Bismarck succeeded in his plan of uniting Germany, though the unification was more a result of Prussian domination than mutual agreement. By 1873, optimism concerning the unification had vanished in the wake of a devastating market crash. But that year also saw two other events: the premiere of Bruch's Odysseus, and Heinrich Schliemann's discovery of the site of ancient Troy. "We are all Greeks," said Shelley, but perhaps Bruch might have added, "especially Germans."

Член од
7 мај 2005
Поени од реакции

Na onie shto ja sledat arheologijata, odamna, odnosno od 1960tite godini, im e poznat pronajdokot na najstariot cerep vo Evropa - vo pesterata Kameni gumna (Petralona) 40 km. juzhno od Solun.


Pronaoganjeto na ovoj cerep vo peshterata Petralona e od vonredno znachenje kako za nas Makedoncite taka i za svetskata nauka i za poimanjeto na svetot voopshto! Se raboti za cerep na chovek koj e predok na Homo Sapiens - Homo Erectus Trigliensis. Ima mnogu pretpostavki vo koi nema da zavleguvam sega, no spored ispituvanjata se pretpostavuva na primer deka toj e del od populacija na najranite covekovi sustestva - verojatno centarot na svetot vo toa pra-praistorisko vreme. So ovoj pronajdok isto taka se zadava tezok udar na teorijata deka lugeto imaat zaednichki potomok vo Afrika.

Megutoa, ona sto e bitno za nas e deka covekot shto go pronashol cherepot, grckiot profesor Aris Poljanos, zboruva za pronajdokot kako otkrien vo "severna Grcija".:nenene:

Poljanos so toa saka da dokaze deka Grcite bile avtohtoni na Balkanot (kompleksot na avtohtonost, isto kako i kaj Bugarite, i kaj ovoj atinski cigan vednas izleguva na povrsina i toa preku pronajdok vo Makedonija). Toj duri i go naslovuva oronajdokot so "Nasite Makedonski predci". :ne:

Bidejkji taa grcka teorija nema nikakva vrska so realnosta, toa im e jasno na site -- Grcite se dojdeni a ne se avtohtoni na Balkanot -- a cerepot e pronajden vo Makedonija koja teritorija od PREDISTORISKI vreminja izgleda deka bila posebna celina -- Poljanos si napravil politichka prikazna deka Amerika i Evreite pochnale so golema anti-Helenistichka propaganda zaradi negoviot pronajdok, za da se sokrie faktot deka ete tie, Grcite, se demek avtohton narod na Balkanot.

Napadite na atinskite cigani kako Poljanos protiv Evreite se dadeni vo zaviena forma, no i samite kje prochitate vo fusnota br. 4 i na drugi mesta za dlabochinata na grckiot kompleks i istoriski problem:


Samo neka prodolzat atinskite cigani da otkrivaat arheoloshki naodi vo okupiraniot egejski del na Makedonija (koga nie veke ne mozheme) i neka prodolzat da se zakacaat so SAD i neka sirat anti-semitizam protiv Evreite.
Член од
17 март 2005
Поени од реакции
Grcite denes tvrdat deka poimot Helen i Grk e edno isto. Ako prasate Grci sto se po nacionalnost kje rechat "Elines". Kluchnoto prashanje togash e: shto e "Helen"?

Eve shto veli Michael Dimitri:

" [t]he term "hellene" which is often translated as the ethnic identification "Greek" did not necessarily mean that to the ancients. Another Athenian statesman, Isocrates (436-338 B.C.), says in his Panegyricus:

‘And so far has out city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name "Hellenes" suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title "Hellenes" is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood.’

Therefore, the term “Hellene” in ancient times had about the same meaning as some of the cultural generalities we use today such as “Western Civilization” or “Oriental”. They are somehow fluid and have little, if any value.

This leads to another question; how did the ancient Greeks determine who was a "hellene" in an ethnic sense?

There were two criteria; one was the person participated in the Olympics, the other was that a city or region had fought on the Greek side of the Trojan War. The Macedonians fit neither of these criteria.”

(Michael A. Dimitri, "The Radiance of Ancient Macedonia," Fort Wayne, 1992, pg. 17)

Znachi terminot "Heleni" e upotrebuvan vo antikata kako kulturoloshka generalizacija (neshto kako terminot "Zapad" denes) namesto kako etnichka odrednica. Isokrat toa mnogu ubavo go objasnil vo citatot daden od M. Dimitri pogore.

No istiot termin bil upotrebuvan vo etnichki smisol samo vo dva sluchaja:
(1) ako chovek uchestvuval na Olimpiskite igri; i/ili
(2) ako odreden grad ili podrachje se borele na stranata na Helenite vo Trojanskata vojna.

Makedoncite/Makedonija ne podpagjaat pod nieden od dvata kriteriuma!


alte Esel
Член од
22 март 2005
Поени од реакции
Vi se cudam na umot. Jasno e deka Grcija t.e. anticka Grcija e izmislena od dvajca trojca evropski romanticari i nekolku nabedeni arheolozi.

I toa go znaat site koi se vo strukata i politikata i vo Evropa i po cel svet. Toa ti e isto kako sega prikaznata za 11 septemvri i teroristite...ili malku porano evreite i germanija...ili vizanticite i bugarite ili....MALKU KOGO GO INTERESIRA VISTINATA..VSUSNOST NIKOGO.......osven zrtvite...:)

A ova pogore napisanoto e vsusnost glavnata pricina za makedonskata zaebancija bidejki vo politicki smisol sekade pisuva Grcija. Vsusnost treba da e Makedonija. Od tuka pocnuva REALNATA evropska istorija od setlandskite ostrovi do Ural, pa i ponataka da ne zborime za moderna Amerika, Avstralija itn., itn. do Patagonija.

Ne deka Makedonija ke se pozlati od toa, ama tesko se menuvaat ubeduvanjata vsadeni vo lugeto. Polesno e da ja spickaat Makedonija i Makedoncite, odkolku da revidiraat odredeni dogmi.


Член од
15 јули 2007
Поени од реакции
Денешна Грција е всушност вештачка политичка креација, а поимот Грк означува нација, а не етнос. Еден голем дел од денешните "Грци" се малоазиски "цигани".
Член од
17 март 2005
Поени од реакции
Vo sushtina "Grk" znaci "pravoslaven Grk"! Zacvrstuvanjeto na grchkata nacionalna svest kon krajot na 18. vek i pocetokot na 19. vek e najtesno povrzana so ulogata na grchkata crkva, a ne so antikata.

Od nekoi poobjektivni Grci se spomenuva poimot "heleno-hristijanstvo"! Vo takva zemja so fragmentirano naselenie koe ne mozhelo da go razbere jazikot na Homer (se vodela debata koj da e "grchki" jazik zoshto vo praktikata imale dva jazika!), edinstvena alka koja gi spojuvala bila crkvata. Znachi od crkvata deneshnite Grci go crpat svojot identitet!!!

I nema kaj niv nikakvi ideali od antikata (kako shto zamisluvale vo Evropa), tuku grckiot nacionalizam se zasnova vo samiot zarodish na idejata deka Grcite se naslednici na najgolemite civilizacii i kako takvi se superiorni nad site drugi nacii vo svetot! Shodno tie trebalo da go shirat grchkiot jazik kaj site drugi i da izvrshat ekspanzija na grchkata drzhava!

No daleku najinteresna e ulogata i vlijanieto vo stvaranjeto na grcka nacija kako od strana na Zapadna Evropa (Germanija) taka i od strana na Rusija preku grchkata crkva. Svetiot sinod na grchkata crkva bil ekspresno kontroliran od vladata vo Bavarija! Dodeka Patrijarshijata vo Carigrad se stavala rechisi sekogash na stranata na Rusija i duri postavuvala patrijarsi po terkot na Rusite!

Isto taka e mnogu indikativno shto po sozdavanjeto na moderna Grcija, vo taa drzhava imalo tri glavni politichki partii: Ruska, Francuska i Angliska partija, sekoja so svoja pozicija za idninata na Grcija - do den denes. Eve nashiroko kako samiote priznavaat od kade im e identitetoti kako se formirala "Grcija":


Eетимолошки од некое си...

Greek, Look up Greek at Dictionary.com

O.E. Crecas (pl.), early Gmc. borrowing from L. Grжci "the Hellenes," from Gk. Grakoi. Aristotle, who was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellenes ("Meteorologica" I.xiv) wrote that it was the name originally used by Illyrians for the Dorians in Epirus, from Graii, native name of the people of Epirus. But a modern theory (put forth by German classical historian Georg Busolt, 1850-1920), derives it from Graikhos "inhabitant of Graia" (lit. "gray"), a town on the coast of Boeotia, which was the name given by the Romans to all Greeks, originally to the Gk. colonists from Graia who helped found Cumae (9c. B.C.E.), the important city in southern Italy where the Latins first encountered Greeks. It was reborrowed in this general sense by the Greeks. Meaning "unintelligible speech, gibberish" is from 1600. Meaning "Greek letter fraternity member" is student slang, 1900.

"It was subtle of God to learn Greek when he wished to become an author -- and not to learn it better." [Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil," 1886]

Greek gift is from "Жneid," II.49: "timeo Danaos et dona ferentes." The Gmc. languages originally borrowed the word with an initial -k- sound (cf. O.H.G. Chrech, Goth. Kreks), which was probably their initial sound closest to the Latin -g- at the time; the word was later refashioned.

да не биле Баварците...


Greece, a toponym the Greeks themselves do not use, is a reversal of Semitic samekh-resh-gimel SaRaG = knitted. Therefore, he has a (weighted) net in his left hand....

да не биле Семитите..


" but Liddell-Scott explains graekus as coming from grais (old woman)..."

што е па сега ова?...


" I looked for words with the etym "graik." No results. Probably the land was named after him, so that when I remove the adjective ending -ikos, I am left with the etym GRA.
-- grastis = crabgrass; grass
-- grastizO = I feed with grass
-- graO = I graze; I take to pasture. [Latin: pascolo, in both senses of the term.]
graikos = grazer; a human graikos = a pasture-man, a shepherd
graikia = a pasture; grassland (grazer-land; shepherd's land).
Possibly the Hellenes of the grasslands or hinterlands, rather than of a country or state, were called Graikoi, in contradistinction
to the Hellenes as sea-people or of the coastal lands....

Aј па сега ново нешто...


My classical Greek dictionary lists
geraios (with an epsilon), = old, venerable; elderly.
This word was obviously contracted in ancient times, as the classical dictionary includes also: graios [= old].
Then there is:
E grays [noun, feminine] = old woman; wrinkly thing [skin; film on boiled milk]. Graologia = old woman chatter.
Graia [ADJECTIVE, feminine] = old.


3аклучок: овие ли ѓубриња кои си немаат етимологија ни на државата Грција, ниту на народот Грци биле најголемата цивилизација ??????

Грчкиот етимолошки речник содржи од 65-80% зборови со објаснување: archaic, unknown. Tоа ли е јазик на некој народ?

Зошто никој од нашиве (па и светскиве учени) не го поставува прашењето како може некој кој е демек 4.000 г. на Балканот да нема слични зборови со соседите (или сличните да се објаснуваат дека се грчки) кога на Балканов освен Албанците и Грците сите други се разбираме.

Cамо немој некој да тресне за славското срање...

п.с. за Камени Гумна -Петралона неколку пати имам постирано, најново и постаро:




историјата денес објаснува дека после смрта на Аце, цел свет се заљубил во Хеленизмот (добро де..некои викаат дека и со сила) и се Хеленизирале. A тоа што значи поимот Хеленизам?...дрн, дрн.

Cпоред аналогијата на Хеленизмот денес некој во Пекинг кој носи Левис и Најки и има лап-топ и на него пишува со Англиски, и во соба ја закачил Џеј Ло би бил Амер.

Kој нормален може да замисли дека некој, од племињата што живееле под шатори, пред да заспие, мајка му му кажувала приказни од Хомер?...или дека на стомната за вода имал нацртани 2 хелени како се фаќаат за муда...

Hо при силна пропаганда која трае веќе 2 столетија, се е можно.
Член од
27 ноември 2005
Поени од реакции
Единствениот проблем е во тоа што Mакедонија археолошки не е доволно ископана. Ископувајќи ja, сите тези за грција, бугарија и слични на нив ќе панат во вода.


Мрачните периоди (Dark ages)

Мрачните периоди (Dark ages) се многу интересна тема. Bо ЕУ мрачни периоди (МП во пон. текст) според "светските историчари " се датирани:

од 500-900 г...
од 400-900 г...
и. тн.

сите по Ристоса баш кога демек Славсите пливале. 3а другите ЕУ МП другпат. 3а Хеленските знаеме од 1200-800 г. пред Ристоса
се изгубило пишувањето, културата, градовите.

интересно е што Хеленските известувачи некако слабо (ич) не не известиле за МП. A пред мракот на Крит (кој ни е генетски најблизок) пишувале без "С" некако вака (во заградите се научно-кршењето јазик и наоѓање сличност со Хелените):

TE-RE-TA (telestas)--..but there are two major theories:

(1) Telestai were religious officials of some kind. PA-KI-JA-NE was a cult center in the Pylian kingdom and the later Greek word tele has religious connotations.

(2) Telestai were fief-holders, persons who held land from someone (possibly the king) in return for services which they rendered to him. The Greek word tele often has the meaning of "taxes" or "dues".

Дали името на античкомакедонскиот воен танц, кој транскрибиран на грчки, се викал "Телесија" можеби е поврзан со придавката "телесна"?

E-QE-TA [heqetas]--Heqetai are known from both Pylos and Knossos. In Classical Greek, the equivalent word (hepetas) means nothing more than "companion, follower"...

"companion to the king" (compare Alexander the Great's hetairoi/companions, a select group of royal comrades-in-arms, as well as the Latin word comes (also meaning "companion")...


QA-SI-RE-U [quasileus = basileus]--..from Mycenaean "village headman"..Homeric basileus..quasileus..
KE-RO-SI-JA [geronsia]--
DA-MO [damos]--"village"..with reference to the "common people" (demos)..
MO-RO-QA [moiroqquas] --Attested at both Pylos and Knossos, this word is the title of a local official whose importance is indicated by the fact that a man by the name of Кlymenos was at the same time MO-RO-QA, the commander of a military unit, and a KO-RE-TE..

Дали рибарот КЛИМЕ е климен?..

KO-RE-TE, PO-RO-KO-RE-TE [koreter, prokoreter]..curator and procurator ("guardian" and "manager, imperial officer/governor" respectively..


Cигурно лингвистите би нашле уште многу слични пред Хомеровски зборови, но каде да најдеме такви лингвисти?
Член од
17 февруари 2005
Поени од реакции








Член од
17 март 2005
Поени од реакции
...Jasno e deka Grcija t.e. anticka Grcija e izmislena od dvajca trojca evropski romanticari i nekolku nabedeni arheolozi.

I toa go znaat site koi se vo strukata i politikata i vo Evropa i po cel svet. Toa ti e isto kako sega prikaznata za 11 septemvri i teroristite...ili malku porano evreite i Germanija...ili vizanticite i bugarite ili.....MALKU KOGO GO INTERESIRA VISTINATA.....VSUSNOST NIKOGO.....osven zrtvite...:)

A ova pogore napisanoto e vsusnost glavnata pricina za makedonskata zaebancija bidejki vo politicki smisol sekade pisuva Grcija. Vsusnost treba da e Makedonija. Od tuka pocnuva REALNATA evropska istorija od setlandskite ostrovi do Ural, pa i ponataka da ne zborime za moderna Amerika, Avstralija itn., itn. do Patagonija.

Ne deka Makedonija ke se pozlati od toa, ama tesko se menuvaat ubeduvanjata vsadeni vo lugeto. Polesno e da ja spickaat Makedonija i Makedoncite, odkolku da revidiraat odredeni dogmi.
Izgleda poteshko se menuvaat navikite otkolku ubeduvanjata. Shefot na katedrata za Classics na Cambridge University, Profesor Paul Cartledge ubavo gi razgranichuva Makedoncite i Grcite vo svojata kniga "Alexander the Great", kako i Makedonija i grchkite gradovi drzhavi. Znachi nema dilema, dva razlichni etnikuma, dve oblasti, itn.

No ... istiot toj prodolzhuva so starata prikazna deka Aleksandar "shirel grchka kultrura", bla, bla. Ete toa im e fazonot, mora Evropa da pochiva na nekoj mit koj nema vrska so istorijata, a ne deka ne znaat (barem akademicite znaat!) deka i zemjite i narodite se razlichni!

Kartlidz duri dal dve razlichni poglavja vo knigata:

- Aleksandar i Makedoncite, na str. 97; i
- Aleksandar i Grcite, na str. 107.

Eve shto pishuva Kartlidz vo vtoroto poglavje, mnogu biten pasos: Grcite se razlichni od Makedoncite; povekjeto od niv vojuvale protiv Aleksandar na sekoj chekor vo Azija i neprekinato na Balkanot; Aleksandar i Antipater se unishtuvachite na politichkata sloboda na Grcite vo Grcija i Azija. Kako da se objasni ovoj paradoks? - voopshto da ne se objasnuva, zoshto nemalo paradoks, veli Kartlidz, Aleksandar e postojan vo tretmanot kon Grcite! Znachi nitu bil Grk, mnozinstvoto Grci vojuvale protiv nego nasekage, i toj bil krajniot unishtuvach na nivnata politichka sloboda!!!

"...Yet, the vast majority of Greeks (as distinct from Macedonians) saw things differently indeed. Right down to the final decisive battle against the Persian Great King, Alexander had more Greeks fighting against him than for him.

Between 336 and 332, a significant number of Greek cities and federations of the mainland were at one time or another up in arms against him (or his deputy, Antipater who served as regent in old Greece).

Between them, Alexander and Antipater were responsible, as the Greeks saw it, for the final anahilation of Greek political liberty both in old Greece and in Asia. ...

How is this seeming paradox to be explained? I shall argue that there is, in fact, no paradox at all, and that Alexander's treatment of the Greeks -- all Greeks, both colectivelly and individually -- was entirely consistant! ..."

(Paul Cartledge, Alexander the Great, Vintage Books A division of Random House Inc., New York, 2004, str. 107-108)

Член од
19 јули 2006
Поени од реакции
Јас по темава разговарав со еден Британец и еве што ми кажа. Вели:

Ние во Британија сите антички држави од Балканот ги учиме под името Стара Грција. Тоа е исто како што вие останатите Европјани за Британија викате Англија а сите Британци ги сметате за Англичани. Ние правиме голема разлика но за вас тоа е едно исто.„

Мене лично отсекогаш ми пречело името "хеленистички период" (наместо македонски) и "хеленистичка култура". Би било многу поправилно да се зборува и учи за македо-хеленска култура и цивилизација.
Член од
30 јули 2007
Поени од реакции
No ... istiot toj prodolzhuva so starata prikazna deka Aleksandar "shirel grchka kultrura", bla, bla.

Mislam deka e vo red, ne se bas nekoi nedorazbiranja, toj navistina sirel Grcka kultura - Makedoncite nemale svoe pismo, nemale svoi zapisi - periodot na helenizmot zapocnuva na toj nacin.

No toj ne go pravel toa tendenciozno zaradi Grcite -- ednostavno mu se nalozuvalo da e taka -- koja alternativa ja imal? - i sekako tuka e negovata privrzanost kon grckite legendi, heroi itn...

Samiot sebe si se narekuval Helen, no toa mn. poveke znaci kulturna pripadnost, kako sto denes nekoj bi se narekol Evropeec - iako bez nikakva negacija toj bil pod silno vlijanie na Grckata kutura.

Grcite denes toa go objasnuvat i gledaat od nacionalna gledna tocka -- sto e problem, bidejki nacii voopsto ne postojat togas -- a bi gi definirale kako narod so svoj sopstven politicki identitet vo edno politicki orientirano opstestvo - sto za toa vreme nema nikakva logika.

Pak na temata, mislam deka e OK toa sto go napisal i dobro e sto gi razgranicil Makedoncite od Grcite!

Iako seuste ne ja zpocnav da ja citam temata za Antickite Makedonci (ke pocnam denovive), sepak za mene ljubopitstvoto za nivnoto poteklo e golema - a i prasanjata tuka dali bile navistina so tek na vremeto helenizirani Makedonicite i faktot deka ne srekavame anticko Makedonsko pismo, od druga strana siroka upotreba na Grcko pismo, itn.

Malce znam za sudbinata na Makedoncite posle Aleksandar, cel vakum period do doagjanjeto na Slovenite - koi seuste ne razbiram koi se(!?) - iako nekakov zaklucok od dosega mi doagja da izvadam deka toa se starite Iliri - koj ja naseluvaat Makedonija vise versa, menuvaat topmnimi itn.. Ne znam ni dali smeam i takvi zaklucoci da si dozvolam, no sto znam nisto pologicno vo raka za sega..

Sepak super za site sto postirate volku informacii - mislam deka nemam kade na drugo mesto da gi procitam.

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