Македонскиот Цар Самоил

[Misirkov]

Determiniranja za Samoilovoto carstvo kako "bugarsko" doadjaat od vizantiski izvori koi terminot "bugari" go upotrebuvaat pogrdno - fakt. Site do eden se pisani po unistuvanjeto na Samoilovoto Carstvo. Terminot "bugaroubiec" na primer e daden od izvor napisan recisi 100 godini po Bregalnickata bitka.

A deka centarot na Samoilovoto Carstvo se naodja vo Makedonija, i deka vo nego ziveat Makedonci pred i po padot na cartstvoto isto taka e fakt.

Shodno, vizantiskiot hronicar Skilica Kedrin, objasnuvajkji go isprakjanjeto na ma­kedonskata vojska vo vojna protiv Turcite vo Mala Azija od stra­na na vizantiskiot imperator Konstantin Monomah (vo sredinata na 11. vek), zapisal:

"Monomah ja prefrli celata makedonska vojska na istok, zaedno so site makedonski voenonacalnici, me|u koi bil i Vrienij. Medju Turcite pocnale da se sirat glasovi deka sudbinata mu opredelila na turskoto pleme da bide potcineto od takva sila so kakva sto Aleksandar Makedonski gi pokoril Persijancite."

Ako bugaro-tatarite zabelezat deka izrazot makedonska vojska se odne­suva za vojskata od vizantiskata tema Makedonija (koja e pretezno vo Trakija), pak kje go potse­time deka ovaa tema navistina opfakjala del i od Make­donija, a vo nea bile preseleni i del od etnickite Makedonci - spored koi i bila narecena taka.

Da go spomneme i postoenjeto na Makedonskata partija, koja dejstvu­vala vo Vizantija vo 11 vek. Psel vo kniga 6 ja spomenuva ovaa partija i nej­zinite aktivnosti vo vremeto na imperatorot Kons­tantin (1042-1055). Predvodeni od "Make­do­ne­cot Leo" (spoed Psel, toj bil pripadnik na se­mejstvoto Tornik), sakale da go simnat vi­zan­tiskiot imperator Kons­­tantin. Opi­su­vajkji gi nastanite okolu ovoj bunt na Makedoncite vo Vizantija, Psel dava i eden interesen etnografski opis za niv:

"Makedoncite... se simnuvaa od konjite i pocnuvaa da igraat tanci so zaednicko peenje tamu kade sto sekoj moze­se da gi vidi. Tie izveduvaa smesni gestovi na smetka na impera­torot, zgaznuvajkji na zemjata so nivnite stapala vo sklad so nivnata muzika i tancuvajkji vo triumf".

Znaci, tatarcetata dobija dokazi deka:

Vo Samoilovoto carstvo eksplicitno se spomenuvaat etnicki Makedonci; deka vojskata na Samoil e sostavena od Makedonci (medju drugite); deka makedonskata falanga bila del od nea i upotrebuvala dolgi kopja (kako vo vremeto na Aleksandar); deka po nadvoresnite obelezja Samoiloviot dvor e makedonski (purpurna obleka, upotreba na sonceto kako simbol); deka makedonska vojska imalo i vo Vizantija kako sto tamu imalo i makedonska partija; deka Vasilij II e od makedonska dinastija, deka Makedoncite digale buntovi protiv vizantiski imperatori isto kako sto Makedoncite digale buni protiv vlasta na bugarskite carovi/hanovi itn.

Se na se, istorijata ne upauva na sudir na dve makedonski dinastii.

 

[nitkov]

Komeniat kazuva: Solun - grad na makedoncite (i zboruva za Antichka Makedonija), no vo 10 vek vo Solun zboruvat slovenski. Mnogo e ubavo da gi meshate razlichni izvori, da citirate out of context i da si vadite "elementarna logika".

није истина, рекао сам ти горе...данашњи истанбул је први и најголемији град на византијци? хау јес ноу...он говори за тадашње солуњане, потомке античких македонаца, који 41 годину раније, сви причају чисто словенски.

Komeniat ne pisuva deka solunjanite sa potmci na anticite makedonci. Pisuva: Solun the first and the largest city of the Macedonians. A jas pisuvam: Plovdiv - grad na makedoncite, osnovan ot Filip; Pella - stolica na makedoncite, kade e roden Alex the Great. Kako jaz zboruvam so tija moi zborovi ne za moeto vreme, a za antikata, zasto i Komeniat da ne zboruva taka???
Jas kazah, deka citatot e out of context, neli? BTW Antonio Miloseski (procete li statijata?) veli: "Темите претежно биле населени со домородно население, и со бегалци кои ги напуштиле своите родни места за време на доселувањето на Словените. Можно е темата Македонија (okolo Odrin) да го добила своето име врз основа на етничкиот состав или географското потекло на нејзиното население."

Leo the Deacon was an eye-witness on the 986 expedition of Basil against Samuil
986 >From the History of Leo the Deacon: "...since they (Byzants) robbed the region of the Macedonians (Samuil Army) mercilessly, destroying all adults.". Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864, p. 311.

Again out of context i so komentari vo skobi (parenthesis), koi ne sa verni.

Eva i citatot (10-ta kniga): "... император Василиj [51] собрал воjско и в'jступил против мисjaн. Eто дикое, жестокое племja пом'jшлjaло толjко об убиjствах; оно наносило вред ромеjскому государству, немилосердно опустошаja Македониjу и уничтожаja всех лjудеj цветуштего возраста[52]."

http://www.ropnet.ru/sapsan/text/bizant/diakon/diakon.htm - Ova e celiot Lav Djakon. Procitaj go.


Vidis deka ne Byzants, a mizijci (misijan) sa tia koi opustosavat Makedonija. A Makedonija e "romejsko gosudarstvo", demek ne e Samuiovata drzava. A Vasilij bil na vojna znae sо koj, neli? - so Samuil. Mizijcite sa samuilovata vojska. Togas stava vaka: since they (Samuil Army) robbed the region of the Macedonians (Byzants) mercilessly, destroying all adults."

ауууу милееееее

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Niiiiiiiiiitkov

17 August 986 Emperor Basil II fled, leaving behind his treasure hoard and a supply train. Byzantine chronist John Geometres lamented over the defeat: "May those ominous trees and mountains vanish from the face of earth! The Istrum (Bulgaria] grabbed the crown from Rome (Byzantium]. The Moesian (Bulgarian] arrows proved stronger than Byzantine spears...

Sto trebe da dokazuva ova?

Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos. ("the Purple-born") (913 – 959) in his book "De thematibus" says that thema Strymion (Struma region along Strumica and Pirin Macedonia) is settled by Macedonians but ruled by Scytians. Ivan Kiriotes – Geometres who was a was biscop of Melitena in X Cent. describes the citizenes of Samloil Kingdom as Macedonians, Moesians, Scytians and Bulgars.

Ova ne sa qouotes, a nekakov razkaz.

Byzant Historian Michael Psellus in 11 Cent in his book no. 6 writes that Macedonian Leo from Family TORNIK wanted to wipe off from the tron the Roman Eperor Constantine (1042-1055). Furthermore Psel states that Macedonians are very fond of dancing and songs (as its case and now).

Sto trebe da dokazuva ova? Deka makedoncite sa romei? Pa jas ne sporja.
Eva sto kazuva Michael Psellus in his book no. 4:
"The people of Bulgaria, after many vicissitudes of fortune and after frequent battles in the past, had become subjects of the Roman Empire . That prince of emperors, the famous Basil, had deliberately attacked their country and destroyed their power." Znaes deka Basil attacked Samuilovoto carstvo, neli? Togas Psellus у исто вријеме се о бугарима (Samil) говори одвојено од македонаца.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/psellus-chrono00.html

у аналима из барија је сасвим јасно одвојена македонска нација од бугарске и осталих:

1027 year: Annales Barenses, MGH SS, V, 53, where they are described as forming part of Constantine VIII's expedition to Sicily: ‘ ... descendit in Italiam cum exercitu magno, i.e. Russorum, Guandalorum, Turcorum, Burgarorum, Vlachorum, Macedonum, aliarumque ut caperet Siciliam.'

A koj rece deka tij Makedonci sa ot zemjata koja dnes znaem kato Makedonija? A dali ne sa ot temata vo Rimskata imperija?

и ана комнена спомиње македонце:

Da spomenuva. Ama za Samil spomenuva drugo:

"...But from the time that Mocrus, King of the Bulgarians , and his descendants, and finally Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty ..."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad00.html

што се тиче назива vulgari, то име је означавало просте људе, а не националну, бугарску припадност. тако су се vulgari звали и срби, и мадјари и босанци, тј. сви славени.

eh lele-male...

Simeon "vasilevs na blgari i romei" (ova na negovija carski pecat) - vasilevs na prostaci i romei
Samuil "the last of Bulgarin dynasty" (Ana Komnina)- poslednijat ot prostoskata dinastija
Vladislav "rodom blgarin" (Bitolski nadpis) - Vladislav rodom prostija
"Simeon, Petar i Samuil, praroditeli moi i na vsichki ostanali care na blgarite" (iz Pismo na Kalojan do papa Inokentij) - ... vsicko ostanali care na prostacite
Ohridska Arhiepiskopi Blgarska (vo gramotite na Vasilij) - Ohridksa Arhiepiskopija Prostaska
Bugarski narodni pesni (Miladinovi) - Prostaski narodni pesni

проф. Микулчик: Извршена е симбиоза помеѓу малуброjните азиски Прабугари и броените словенски племиња кои на широкиот простор од Дунав на север, до Ereja на jуг и од Jадран на запад, до Црното Море на исток го прифатиле заедничкиот етникон "Бугари"

и ово је лага, није извршена никаква симбиоза него су азијски бугари силом покорила словене. сама нелогичност произлази из те тезе...како је (Поправи со “ќ“!) да су се малобројни бугари утопили у многобројне славене, а ови "добровољно" преузели бугарско име?

Ova e makedonski istorichar. Ama toa sto na tebe ne ti se saka da veruvas ne znaci deka ne e mozno. Vasilij "rodom bugarin" e prifatil bugarskoto ime, a ne makedonskoto.

акад. Ристовски: Следствено, бугарското име во Македонија не е резултат на некаква бугарска пропаганда, уште помалку на Бугарската егзархија во Македонија, туку наследство од бледите државно-правни традиции од средновековјето што ги поддржуваше на извесен начин и Охридската архиепископија..."

ово је најголемија лага, али почиње аргентина-бразил, немам сад времена, идем гледат утакмицу.

I ova e makedonski istorichar, a ne "bugarska propaganda", ama na nekoj ich ne mu dopagja kago mu se kazat nekoi bolni nesta.


P.S. Pak nemase ni edin DOKUMENT koj da kazuva konkretno za Samuil, carstvoto mu, naroda, crkvata, koronata mu deka e Makedonija/makedonska. A inku deka imalo tema Makedonija i makedonci vo Rimskata imperija znaem.

Komeniat ne pisuva deka solunjanite sa potmci na anticite makedonci. Pisuva: Solun the first and the largest city of the Macedonians. A jas pisuvam: Plovdiv - grad na makedoncite, osnovan ot Filip; Pella - stolica na makedoncite, kade e roden Alex the Great. Kako jaz zboruvam so tija moi zborovi ne za moeto vreme, a za antikata, zasto i Komeniat da ne zboruva taka???

a zašto bi komneniat govorio za solun i makedonce baš onako kao što si ti govorio za plovdiv? mi za ovo kažemo: što se babi snilo, to joj se i htilo
kristalno je jasno da komneni govori za etničke makedonce, a ne za stanovnike tadašnje regije makedonija jer solun u to vrijeme nije bio u makedoniji.

Jas kazah, deka citatot e out of context, neli? BTW Antonio Miloseski (procete li statijata?) veli: "Темите претежно биле населени со домородно население, и со бегалци кои ги напуштиле своите родни места за време на доселувањето на Словените. Можно е темата Македонија (okolo Odrin) да го добила своето име врз основа на етничкиот состав или географското потекло на нејзиното население."

antonio miloseski grijesi. nije bilo nikakve seobe slavena, dokazano je. evo pa citaj:
http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

za generalne informacije:
www.continuitas.com

usput, i genetska istrazivanja(spanski nacionalni institut za biotehnologiju) pokazuju da su makedonci jedan od najstarijih mediteranskih naroda.

Eva i citatot (10-ta kniga): "... император Василиj [51] собрал воjско и в'jступил против мисjaн. Eто дикое, жестокое племja пом'jшлjaло толjко об убиjствах; оно наносило вред ромеjскому государству, немилосердно опустошаja Македониjу и уничтожаja всех лjудеj цветуштего возраста[52]."

ne razumijem ruski. moze neki link na engleskom, makedonskom ili srpskom/hrvatskom da procitam pa da onda diskutujemo?

17 August 986 Emperor Basil II fled, leaving behind his treasure hoard and a supply train. Byzantine chronist John Geometres lamented over the defeat: "May those ominous trees and mountains vanish from the face of earth! The Istrum (Bulgaria] grabbed the crown from Rome (Byzantium]. The Moesian (Bulgarian] arrows proved stronger than Byzantine spears..

Sto trebe da dokazuva ova?

ovo dokazuje da su vizantijci jasno razlikovali dva etnikuma, bugare koje su zvali mizi i slovene, koje su zvali vulgari.u samuilovoj vojsci su bili i jedni i drugi.

Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos. ("the Purple-born") (913 – 959) in his book "De thematibus" says that thema Strymion (Struma region along Strumica and Pirin Macedonia) is settled by Macedonians but ruled by Scytians. Ivan Kiriotes – Geometres who was a was biscop of Melitena in X Cent. describes the citizenes of Samloil Kingdom as Macedonians, Moesians, Scytians and Bulgars.

Ova ne sa qouotes, a nekakov razkaz.

da, da...mogao si napisat da ovo nije cirilica vec latinica pa se ne prizna, jel tako? porfirogenet fino pise da je strumska regija naseljena makedoncima kojim vladaju skiti. a kao sto znamo, to je kasnije dio samuilove drzave, jel tako? naveden ti je i izvor, "de thematibus", pa bujrum, citaj.

Eva sto kazuva Michael Psellus in his book no. 4:
"The people of Bulgaria, after many vicissitudes of fortune and after frequent battles in the past, had become subjects of the Roman Empire . That prince of emperors, the famous Basil, had deliberately attacked their country and destroyed their power." Znaes deka Basil attacked Samuilovoto carstvo, neli? Togas Psellus у исто вријеме се о бугарима (Samil) говори одвојено од македонаца.

michael psellus govori o vulgarima, a ne o bugarima. a da je tako, dokazuje i u svojoj hronici u kojoj pise o ustanku petra deljana(ujak mu je srpski car stefan dusan) koji se dogodio u sjevernoj srbiji pa kaze:..to se pobuni pleme vulgara...pa nastavlja..zemlja vulgara od beograda, preko nisha pa sve do skopja...znaci cijela danasnja srbija. da neces mozda da kazes da su i srbi bugari?
vidim da si makedonac, a smutili te ovi bugari sa svojom interpretacijom grcke rijeci vulgaroi. nema veze, ima brat nitkov da te prosvijetli pa da opet stanes makedonac

1027 year: Annales Barenses, MGH SS, V, 53, where they are described as forming part of Constantine VIII's expedition to Sicily: ‘ ... descendit in Italiam cum exercitu magno, i.e. Russorum, Guandalorum, Turcorum, Burgarorum, Vlachorum, Macedonum, aliarumque ut caperet Siciliam.

A koj rece deka tij Makedonci sa ot zemjata koja dnes znaem kato Makedonija? A dali ne sa ot temata vo Rimskata imperija?

ako povezemo ovo:
Annales Lupi Protospatharii
1027. Despotus Nicus in Italiam descendit cum ingentibus copiis Russorum, Wandalorum, Turcarum, Bulgarorum, Brunchorum, Polonorum, Macedonum, aliarumque nationum, ad Siciliam capiendam.

sa porfirogenetom u de thematubis, vjerovatno je da su to ti makedonci.

и ана комнена спомиње македонце: [/quote]

Da spomenuva. Ama za Samil spomenuva drugo:

...But from the time that Mocrus, King of the Bulgarians , and his descendants, and finally Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty ..."?

vulgaroi nije isto sto i bugari...ke vidis u sljedecem postu

eh lele-male...

Simeon "vasilevs na blgari i romei" (ova na negovija carski pecat) - vasilevs na prostaci i romei
Samuil "the last of Bulgarin dynasty" (Ana Komnina)- poslednijat ot prostoskata dinastija
Vladislav "rodom blgarin" (Bitolski nadpis) - Vladislav rodom prostija
"Simeon, Petar i Samuil, praroditeli moi i na vsichki ostanali care na blgarite" (iz Pismo na Kalojan do papa Inokentij) - ... vsicko ostanali care na prostacite
Ohridska Arhiepiskopi Blgarska (vo gramotite na Vasilij) - Ohridksa Arhiepiskopija Prostaska
Bugarski narodni pesni (Miladinovi) - Prostaski narodni pesni

za simeona me bas briga.

samuil je vulgar, a to nije isto sto i bugar.

bitolski natpis je falsificirano smece iz 19. vijeka, isto kao i vodenski po priznanju bozidara dimitrova, direktora nacionalnog istorijskog muzeja u sofiji.

ne zanima me ni kalojan

ohridska arhiepiskopija nikad nije bila bugarska, to je notorna laz.

bugarski narodni pesni, moguce da je to istina, ali uz jedno malo objasnjenje:

The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (Friedman 1975:84), or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all (Wilkinson 1951:149), came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense.

moze i blgarski izvor:

The propaganda consisted of introducing among the common Slavic people the world “Bolgar”, as a synonym for “Slavonic Christian”; As this propaganda was so strong, really the word “Bolgar” became a synonym for “Christian that speak Slavonic” in the 19 Cent., but not and nationality. When bulgarian peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox. The Russian Tsar was a "Bulgarian Tsar" for him not by nationality, but by Orthodox Christianity.
(Source: A. Teodorov-Balan, Edna makedonska teorija - Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818).

проф. Микулчик: Извршена е симбиоза помеѓу малуброjните азиски Прабугари и броените словенски племиња кои на широкиот простор од Дунав на север, до Ereja на jуг и од Jадран на запад, до Црното Море на исток го прифатиле заедничкиот етникон "Бугари"

auuu mileeeee

Opposite of the claims of present Bulgarian History, the medieval history sources say that Ante (Bulgarian Slavs) were in slavery and subordinate relations with Bulgars Tatars, who were Masters of the seven Antae tribes and sole Rulers of Bulgaria.
Constantinopole (Byzantine) Patriarch Nikifor writes that Bulgarians subjugated the Slavs.
Byzantine Author Theofanus says that subjugated 7 Antae tribes were forced to pay tax to the Bulgarians. .
In 767 AD by request of Byzant, the Bulgarians had arrested and have handed over to the Byzantens the Prince Slavun, Leader of Bulgarian Antes –Slavs.

IOAN EXARCH was one of the most important writers in the first decades of X Cent, who was describing the situation at the territories ruled by Bulgarians. The present Bulgarian Historians named it IOAN EXARCH BULGARIAN, but writing about the Bulharian Khan Simeon I (893-927 A.D.)
he describes the Bulgarians, Bulgarian Boylars (Tatar Aristocracy) and Managers as bullies of the Slavs (јоан Екзарх нарича б'лгарските болјари и управлјавашти "насилници славјански”). IOAN EXARCH was writing in Glagoloc and consequently it was a Slav, but as we can see from his writing, it was anti-Bulgarian. So, despite the Claims of Modern Bulgarian History that Slavs merged and mixed with Bu7lgarians (Tatars) in the middle of IX Cent, we can see that even the chroniclers from X Cent. still describe the Slavs in Bulgaria as people under Bulgarian Slavery.

Not to forget the fact that Bulgarian Slavs were not called Sclaveni or Slavs in that time, but after receipt of the Slavonic Language they were named as “Slavjani” – Slavs. Each nation that receipt the Slavonic Alphabet and Slavonic Language started to be named “Slav” informs Pasii Hilendarski, Author of the first History of Bulgaria “Slavianoblgarska istorija” in 1765.(Source: Историја салвеноболгарскаја, собрана и нареждана Паисием иеромонахом... ). “Slavianoblgarska istorija” is based on Legends and written by Pasii Hilendarski and Dervish Husametdin Muslimi who distributed among the Volga, Kavkaz and Danube Bulgarian-Tatars. This “History” is actually typical national-romantic “Legend” about the great Bulgaria and pretending all people from Belgrade to Salonica and from Black up to Adriatic Sea that are pure Bulgarians. But its interesting that the whole modern Bulgarian History is based on the “Legends” of Pasii Hilendarski and Dervish Husametdin Muslimi who equalized the Tatars with Slavs, that is entirely untruth.

Mediveal Kiev Author from Kiev Russia describes the Bulgarians as Tatars who were Slavic slayers and lived along Danube (Source: Киевски летописец с'што пише: “...рекоми Б'лгаре и седоша по Дунаеви, и насильницы словеном быша” <Державин, Н.С. Историја на Б'лгарија. Том І, с.213>, Derzhavin, N.S. Bulgarian History. Volume I, page 213).

Furthremore, there are NO records that Slavs took positions in the Bulgar (Tatar) Country Administration and Army; Turko-Tatarian Bulgars were absolute rulers of Bulgaria. All positions in the Bulgarian State were assigned to real Tatars-Bulgars and to the people from Tatar stock like Kumans, Pechenegs etc. Even the Bulgarian Rulers up to the XIV Cent. were all of Tatarian Stock, not only from small Bulgaria (territory between Danube and Stara Planina), but also from the Tatarstan. <Виж. И. (Source: Snegarov. Christianity in Bulgaria before baptizing og Khan Boris, “Yearbook of the spiritual Academy”, 1956, p. 218 - Снегаров. Христијанството в Б'лгарија преди покр'стването на кнјаза Бориса. С., Годишник на Духовната академија, 1956, с.218>.

акад. Ристовски: Следствено, бугарското име во Македонија не е резултат на некаква бугарска пропаганда, уште помалку на Бугарската егзархија во Македонија, туку наследство од бледите државно-правни традиции од средновековјето што ги поддржуваше на извесен начин и Охридската архиепископија..."

“… Мора да се признае оти Охрид бил престолнина на Словено-Македонско царство, кое се именувало како бугарско, но кое немало ништо општо и заедничко со бившото Прибалканско и Заддунавско Царство. Македонското Царство се појавило по истерувањето на Бугарите од Македонија и тоа имало посебна династија, своја Патријаршија и свои патријарси”. (Н. Дурново, Имет’ ли Болгари исторически права нат’ Македонскољ Тракии…, 74).


po najvecem vizantiologu svih vremena g.ostrogorskom samuilovo carstvo je bilo: MOCNA MAKEDONSKA IMPERIJA.

 

[nitkov]

evo prevodio sam na na engleski za jedan drugi forum pa procitaj, valjda znas engleski. da vidimo jesu li vulgari isto sto i bugari..

according to stilipon kuriakidis, in 10th century, with derogatory name "vulgaroi", byzantium started to call all slavic people, serbs, bosnians, and of course, macedonians ( stilipon kuriakidis, the book "northern borders of hellenism, page 39.). derogatory name vulgaroi (vulgaros) have been roman-greek term for common, uncivilized people. its very possible that term is borrowed from latin language because byzantians often used latin terms, like term "rex" for king. in the middle age hungary, term vulgar have been used for the lowest class of people. hungary was divided on three classes: counts, knight and vulgars (HUNGARIAN PREHISTORY FROM THE BEGINNINGS TO KING ST. STEPHEN (1038), Encyclopaedia Humana Hungarica 01., Andrea Farka ). krste petkov misirkov in his famous book "on macedonian matters" writes: " for greek everything slavic was rough, bulgarian... bulgars ment uneducated people, barbarians, people which borders with beasts" (my translation).. as i said above, in a modern greek language, according to g. babiniotis dictionary (athens,1998.) word vulgar, beside meaning of nationality of bulgarians, mean rough, common people.

serbs were vulgars too. laonicus chalcondyles writes: "tribals (middle age archaic name for serbs) are named vulgars now(my translation)"(Laonicus Chalcondyles), P.G., т. 159, Op. cit., kol. 26).

so the term bugar(in greek language vulgar) became synonim for slavic speaking people. serbian academic petar dragacevic, at the end of 19th century, visited greece. he said that greeks called him bugar(vulgar) altough he explained them that he is serbian from serbia. so he concludes that greeks call all slavic people "vulgaroi" (petar dragacevic, makedonski sloveni, 1890., beograd)
in the time of greek national liberation struggle (1821.-1829.) one song has been sang in purpose to attract different nationalities which lived in greece: "albanians, vlachs, bulgars, people who speak different languages, join us, and all prepared to become greeks"(my translation).( 1. Victoria Clark, Why Angels Fall. A journey through Orthodox Europe from Byzantium to Kosovo Macmillan: London, 2000 ISBN: 0 333 75185 X; 2. FATHER GREGORY TILLETT, The British Orthodox Church.) uprising in greece (1821.-1829.) took a part in peloponezus, part of greece, which bulgarians never settle or conquer, so its totaly clear that under name "bulgars" greeks ment slavic people( milingi and ezerci, slavic tribes which lived in greece).

many latin chronics wrote term vulgar as synonim for slavic people. marin barleti(skadar 1450 - rim 1512/13, catholic pries from skadar(albanian port) lived in the time of skenderbeg and he wrote well known "history of life and deeds of skenderbeg, prince of epirus" (“Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis”); in the 13th book "Vita et res praeclare gestae Christi Athletae Georgii Castrioti Epirotarum principis, qui propter heroicam virtutem suam a Turcis Scander beg, id est Alexander Magnus cognominatus est libris XIII" he gave us full detail information of georgi-second alexander the great and his army, for which barleti writes that consist of people from debar who are in the same time macedonians....“Scanderbegus... vias patentes inter manipulos antesignario Dibranis suis et Macedonicis explevit (ea levis armatura erat)".

but, marin barleti in the same book for people northern of macedonia, for tribals(serbs) writes that they are bulgarians ...“Bulgari sive Tribali habitant”....in propper translation: "bulgars settle tribalia(serbia)".

even father of bulgarian nation, pasija hilandarski in his history writes that greeks used term bulgar for slavic people and that all slavic languages for greeks are bulgarian(raffish)(SOURCE: СЛАВјаНОБ'ЛГАРСКА ИСТОРИја, ПАИСИј ХИЛЕНДАРСКИ, ЗА СЛАВјаНСКИТЕ УЧИТЕЛИ)(SLAVICBULGARIAN HISTORY, FOR SLAVIC TEACHERS)

thats why in most chronics from byzant, macedonians tsar samuil was named "tsar of vulgars" and his poeple vulgari. with a purpose to make clear distincion beetween those two etnicum, byzantium sources call bulgarians by nationality as "moesians"(i am not sure if i wrote it in proper english, in my laguage its "mizi") .



in the chronics of michael psel he writes for uprising of petar deljan which tokk a part in todays north serbia. he said that: "tribe of vulgars raised" and he continues.."land of vulgars from belgrade, over nish, till skopje"..so according to greek chauvinist explanation of word vulgars we could conclude that serbas are bulgarians??!!?!

in the ottoman empire, term bulgarian has been used for slavic people in this empire:
The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (Friedman 1975:84), or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all (Wilkinson 1951:149), came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense.

term greek had a simular meaning:

During the Ottoman period, therefore, terms like "Bulgarian" and "Greek" were not used to designate different ethnic or national groups; they were used to designate different sociocultural categories in what Hechter (1978) has called a system of "cultural division of labour." In this system of ethnic stratification the process of upward social mobility by which a Slavic-speaking peasant or a Vlach-speaking shepherd entered the merchant class was indistinguishable from the process of Hellenization." When a farmer or a shepherd became a merchant, he was no longer a "Bulgarian" or a "Vlach"; he became a "Greek". During this time ethnicity was "the modality in which class [was] lived" (Hall et al. 1978:394).

the biggest byzantiologist of all times, george ostrogorsky claims that term vulgar was collectively name for all slavs and that samuil state was in his words: "MIGHTY MACEDONIAN EMPIRE"

there are many examples, at the end i will say just two more. in hercegovina, where my father comes from, people sing a song, called "bugar-kabanica" and in dalmatia ther is song "bugarshtica" which is acctually song of a common people, opposite of literary song, mostly italian.

ima toga jos pa reci ako sakas.

 

[what is macedonian]

Nitkov, sto stana so Lav Djakon, poveke ne go sakash?
Inaku da te prasham - proveri li vo starogrcki jazik shto znachi "Boylgaroi"?
Kako se narekuvali sami vo svoite dokumenti srbi, balgari, rusnaci, hrvati?
Site se narekuvali sami "Boylgaroi", da?
Kako gi nareluvali arabskite hroniki ili armenskite?
BTW "tribali" izvorno nemat nishto obshto so srbite - toa bilo golemo dako-trakiisko pleme i ziveelo na teritorijata na deneshna Severozapadna Balgarija i del ot Srbija. Tie zemi bili del ot drzavata Balgarija ot 681 g. do 13 v. "Srbite" vo Vidin, Vraca i Montana "si sme balgari" (citat ot Goce Delchev)

 

[nitkov]

ili napisi nesto pametno pa da diskutiramo ili nemoj nista ni pisat, ispadas pametniji kad sutis.

tribali nemaju nista sa srbima?? ma nemoj mi reci..:

Starost slovenskih naroda, odnosno Srba i njihovo geografsko odredište u Evropi, pitanje je na koje u poslednje vreme mnogi naučnici pokušavaju da daju odgovor. Veliki broj njih poziva se na pisanje vizantijskog naučnika iz petnaestog veka Laonika Halkokondila. Kao i njegove savremenike i Halkokondila je privlačilo pitanje starosti evropskih naroda, s tim što je on posebno bio zainteresovan za njihovu jezičku sličnost, odnosno razliku.

Ovog naučnika posebno su zanimala balkanska slovenska plemena. Ta tematika bila mu je bliska jer mu je bila dostupna građa njegovih zemljaka hroničara. On navodi nekoliko slovenskih grupa rasutih po Evropi, ali mu posebnu pažnju privlači prostor od Dakije do Pinda i Tesalije "na kojem živi jedno pleme". I pored dosta neizvesnosti, Halkokondil je zapisao: "Samo jedno znam sigurno da Tribali (Srbi), Mizi (Bugari), Iliri, Kroati, Polani i Sarmati (Rusi) govore sličnim jezikom te mora da su srodni."

uzmi halkokondilovu "istoriju vizantije", okreni str. 14. pa citaj.

Inaku da te prasham - proveri li vo starogrcki jazik shto znachi "Boylgaroi"?

ja sam provjerio, provjeri ti. probaj me pobiti ako mozes

Kako se narekuvali sami vo svoite dokumenti srbi, balgari, rusnaci, hrvati?
Site se narekuvali sami "Boylgaroi", da?

ne iskrivljuj moje rijeci, ja nisam rekao da su se oni sami tako nazivali vec da su ih tako zvali grci-romei.

dok se trudis da nadjes kojekakve "dokaze" da pobijes moje tvrdnje, evo malo materijala za razmisljanje:

case iz kojih je samuilo pio vino

more, bugarin li e bio?

 

[Serdarot]

nitkov, ako nekoj den sluchajno dojdat vistinski lugje na vlast, kje te predlozham za Orden za zaslugi na Narod

gi otepa bukarive so dokazi, samo se praat tie "na tosho"

ama ako, kje im dojde umot i niv...

koga zabludeniot sin kje se vrati kon majkata, kje s raduvaat i neboto i zemjata 8)

 

[what is macedonian]

Ovie "case" se "dokaz" za?

"...Halkokondil je zapisao: "Samo jedno znam sigurno da Tribali (Srbi), Mizi (Bugari), Iliri, Kroati, Polani i Sarmati (Rusi) govore sličnim jezikom te mora da su srodni...."
(ZASHTO gi nema "makedoncite" kai slovenite?)

Za zborot "Boulgaroi" check some on-line Antic Greek dictionaries, here's one: http://kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon. A moze i da otgovorish kakvo imal predvid Vasilii II Balgaroubiec vo svojata prva gramota na Ohridskata arhiepiskopija vo koja shto kazuva "..Nai-posle drzavata na balgarite....." - moze bi imal predvid Hrvatsko ili Rusija ili Srbija ili Makedonija (hahahaaa)?

"..ne iskrivljuj moje rijeci, ja nisam rekao da su se oni sami tako nazivali vec da su ih tako zvali grci-romei..."

ne iskrivljuj moje rijeci, ja nisam rekao da si TI tako rekao, te prasav neshto na koe sto NE sakash da odgovorish, zashto? Moze bi zatoa sto balgarite SAMI se narekuvali BALGARI (DORI MNOGO predi 10 v.?) Ili moze bi Rusnacite se narekuvali RUSI?

I posledno sto stana so Lav Djakon? Koi se makedonci i koi balgari spored nego ili ti poveke ne go sakash, on ne postoi?

 

[ВМРО]

Не знам дали до сега е поставено прашањево ама многу ме интересира зошто цар Самоил не е крунисан од Цариград, туку од Ватикан?

 

[Divider]

Византискиот патријарх одбил да го круниса за цар под притиско на Василие, по што Самоил заминал во Рим кај папата, како крал со освоената царска круна на бугарскиот цар, со која е крунисан. Поради тој факт, дека самоил е крунисан со бугарската царска круна, како keiser und konig или цар и крал, како што бил и Германскиот, крал и цар, на Германија и Прусија, чувашките ропагандисти през историјата трубат дека е бугарин, која заблуда.

 

[Sinisa]

2. папата може да даде само кралска корона, а не и царска. между двете титли има разлика, никога не имало германски цар.

Ту много грешиш:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Emperor

 

[shopski]

2. папата може да даде само кралска корона, а не и царска. между двете титли има разлика, никога не имало германски цар.

Ту много грешиш:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Emperor

за титлите на гермабнските крале и кајзери може и да б'ркам нешто, и за това кое на какво е еквивалент. Титлата цар се дава само от православен патриах, а Самуил не е "кајзер" нито "император"

Ама за липсата на контакти между Самуил и Ватикана не б'ркам. Подробно - Пириватрич.

 

[Svetovid]

E znachi chuvash kolku si mongoloiden bolgar ne mi se veruva ej! :zid: :zid: :zid: Abe po sto pati edno isto vi povtoruva chovek i ne vi vlaga vo timbite chuvashki mongoloidni, pa toa ti e! Oooooooooo nakotu turski slaboumen razberi se ednash za navek:

"Poradi bugarskite osvojuvanja vo Makedonija vo tekot na IX-ot vek i po rechisi ednovekovnoto bugarsko vladeenje vo Makedonija, a osobeno po potpishuvanjeto na mirovniot dogovor pomegju Vizantija i Bugarija vo 927-ta godina, so koj Vizantija na Bugarite im gi priznala teritorijalnite proshruvanja vo Makedonija, Albanija i Srbija, pogolemiot del od ovie teritorii vo izvorite bile narekuvani so imeto Bugarija, dodeka za naselenieto na tie oblasti bil upotrebuvan drzhavniot termin Bugari. No nezavisno od toa, vo vizantiskite i zapadnite izvori se zabelezhuva
upotreba na imeto Makedonija i Makedonci so poshiroko znachenje otkolku negovoto antichko. So zastapenosta na imeto Makedonija i Makedonci vo izvorite vo ovoj period se negira postoechkiot fakt vo toj period deka pogolemiot del od teritorijata na Makedonija se naogjal pod bugarska vlast, a spored toa se negira i avtomatskoto nametnuvanje na imeto Bugarija i Bugari, za novoosvoenite nebugarski oblasti i narodi. Vo taa smisla, osobeno se istaknuva vizantiskiot car i pisatel
Konstantin VII Porfirogenit. Megju drugoto, vo izvorite* od X-ot vek i ponatamu prodolzhuva plemenskoto imenuvanje na Slovenite vo Makedonija. So smrtta na bugarskiot car Petar vo 969-ta godina, vostanieto na komitopulite vo Makedonija protiv bugarskata vlast, napadot na ruskiot knez Svjatoslav na Bugarija, vizantiskata voena intervencija vo Bugarija i propasta na Bugarskoto Carstvo vo 972-ta godina, kako i vtoroto vostanie na makedonskite Komitopuli protiv vizantiskata vlast vo 976-ta godina, vo Makedonija bila formirana srednovekovnata Makedonska drzhava."

*I dosta so tie izvori bando mongoloidna. Koi izvori sakash be chuvashki gade, vizantiski? Prvo da citirash izvori od toa vreme koi nitu se posredni, ushte pomalku se objektivni, a mnogu chesto nitu se napishani od sovremenici na tie nastani e mnogu rizichno i e indikator za neinventivnost i nedostatok na logichki rasud kaj pishuvachot, a vo tvojot sluchaj indikator za mongoloidnost! Prvo i osnovno chuvashki mongoloidu ti trgnuvash od sosema pogreshno osnovi. Niedna tvoja teorija ne drzhi voda, se shto kje kazhesh e pogreshno, zatoa shto nemaat osnova. Makedonija i Makedoncite sega, vo 9-ti vek nasha era i vo 9-ti vek pred nasha era se edni i isti!!! Tvojata osnova e preselbata na narodite, koja denes vo svetot retko koj seriozen nauchnik ja smeta za tochna, osven normalno maloumnikot, chuvashkiot megafon kretencheto poturcheno bozho dimitrov. Idiot od takov kalibar teshko se naogja kaj drugi narodi, a kaj vas chuvashkata surija gi ima bogami i so lopata da gi rinesh.

 

[Svetovid]

Spored chuvashkiot nakot, ako Samoil se proglasil za bugarski car, mora da e Bugar. Samo zashto pogjavolite prestilninata mu bila vo Ohrid, a ne kako na chuvashkite glavatari vo Pliska, ili Sredec, li kaj im beshe toa osiloto chuvashko?

Ta spored istava chuvashka logika Rusite se Poljaci. Vrven dokaz:
By the Grace of God
WE, NICHOLAS THE SECOND,
Emperor and Autocrat
Of All the Russias,
Tsar of Poland, Grand Duke of Finland,
etc., etc., etc.,
Declare to all Our loyal subjects:
Impossible as it seemed, but treacherously preparing from the very beginning of the war, Bulgaria has betrayed the Slav cause: The Bulgarian army has attacked Our faithful ally Serbia, [which is already] bleeding profusely in a struggle with a strong enemy.
Russia and Our allied Great Powers tried to warn Ferdinand of Coburg against this fatal step. The fullfillment of an age-old aspiration of the Bulgar people - union with Macedonia - has [already] been guaranteed to Bulgaria by a means more in accord with the interests of the Slav world.
But appeals by the Germans to secret ambitions and fratricidal emnity against the Serbs prevailed.
Bulgaria, whose [Orthodox] faith is the same as Ours, who so recently has been liberated from Turkish slavery by the brotherly love and the blood of the Russian people, openly took the side of the enemies of the Christian faith, the Slav world and of Russia.
The Russian people react with bitterness to the treachery of a Bulgaria which was so close to them until recently, and draw their swords against her with heavy hearts, leaving the fate of these traitors to the Slav world to God's just retribution.
Given at the Tsar's Headquarters the 5th day of October, in the year from the Nativity of Christ the 1,915th, and of Our reign the twenty-first.
On the true authority of His Imperial Majesty,
(signed)
NICHOLAS

ovoj dokument vo original:
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1915/nickbul1.html

 

[shovinist]

Spored chuvashkiot nakot, ako Samoil se proglasil za bugarski car, mora da e Bugar. Samo zashto pogjavolite prestilninata mu bila vo Ohrid, a ne kako na chuvashkite glavatari vo Pliska, ili Sredec, li kaj penis im beshe osiloto?

какво си тр'гнал да спориш за историја, бе, ти немаш елеметарни познанија.
През 971 јоан Цимисхиј превзема Преслав и цјала Северна Б'лгарија е под византијска власт, кој ште прави там б'лгарска д'ржава.
Самуил е контролирал Северо-Източна Б'лгарија само около 15 г, от битката при Трајанови врата до около 1000 г. Духовните лица бегат на запад оште през 971 г.
През останалото време властта там е била византијска.

 

[Misirkov]

Za razlikite vo imenuvanjeto od strana na vizantijcite pogledni tuka, kako i koj e vo zabluda, pa tie i mnogu drugi raboti kje ti se razjasnat:

http://forum.kajgana.com/showthread.php?t=2655

P.S. Nekolku postovi se izbrisani zaradi flodiranje bez relevantni komentari po temata.