Game of Thrones

[RickyLFC9]

Значи базирањето на целата логика позади одбраната на силувањево е priceless. Демек океј е силување, ама не силување на емоционално трауматизирани личности

Башка Да Не Е Рис исто имаше цел живот со мизерии. Приморана беше да се крие, да пребега, семејството и беше збришано со исклучок на менталниот брат што ја вреѓаше при секоја пригода. Ја коритеше како објект, ја парадираше кај стаса, да не зборуваме за „ благо инцестоидните“ моменти. Научила од силувањето викате. Па од кај знаете дека Санса нема да научи бе ? Батката уште не свршил, вие и ја предвидовте судбината и реакцијата

Настрана заебанцијата, Санса го презеде приматот од Бејлиш за непредвидливост. Знае што прави ( во поголемиот дел ).

Денерис ништо нема научено, празна и е тиквата уште.

 

[Mojso]

Денерис ништо нема научено, празна и е тиквата уште.

Плавуша

 

[Torchyrus]

Kolku se potresovte kako vo real life da ja siluval...

 

[Zedd]

Мене приказната на Арја ми е ок, сигурно за еден ден не се станува фејслес човек. Поминаа 6 епизоди и се надевам дека наредните 2 ќе бидат одлични зошто како по обичај ако само 9та е екстра сезона ќе биде доста слаба. А толку многу очекував од Дорн

 

[Darling]

Значи базирањето на целата логика позади одбраната на силувањево е priceless. Демек океј е силување, ама не силување на емоционално трауматизирани личности

Башка Да Не Е Рис исто имаше цел живот со мизерии. Приморана беше да се крие, да пребега, семејството и беше збришано со исклучок на менталниот брат што ја вреѓаше при секоја пригода. Ја коритеше како објект, ја парадираше кај стаса, да не зборуваме за „ благо инцестоидните“ моменти. Научила од силувањето викате. Па од кај знаете дека Санса нема да научи бе ? Батката уште не свршил, вие и ја предвидовте судбината и реакцијата

Настрана заебанцијата, Санса го презеде приматот од Бејлиш за непредвидливост. Знае што прави ( во поголемиот дел ).

Не, воопшто не е во ред. Верувај нема толку силувања у книгите колку што прават у серијата. Во серијава излегува дека сите жени освен онаа црвената и Игрит имаат аверзија од секс. Ми смета кога се измислуваат, сечат и лепат работи со цел да се добие шок фактор.

Мене баш ме интересира шо е толку непредвидлива Санса бе? Шо толку знае шо прави? Еве 5 сезони чекаме да направи нешто непредвидливо.
Ко што видов у привју за следна епизода гличи и цмиздри пред Ремзи. Уау... многу е сменета од она што го правеше у Кингс Лендинг.

 

[Hurin]

Се надевам дека нема санса да ја вратат како во втора сезона, да се подјебаваат со незе и барем до крајот на сезоната ќе направи нешто драматично во нејзина полза. Ако целта на креаторите му била од неа да направат женска верзија од теон, тогаш буквално го усраа концептот шо го тераа предходната сезона дека конечно ги разбира игрите.
Се надевам нема да чека вујче краткопрсте да ја спаси од курето на копилето

 

[Srcee]

Се надевам дека нема санса да ја вратат како во втора сезона, да се подјебаваат со незе и барем до крајот на сезоната ќе направи нешто драматично во нејзина полза. Ако целта на креаторите му била од неа да направат женска верзија од теон, тогаш буквално го усраа концептот шо го тераа предходната сезона дека конечно ги разбира игрите.
Се надевам нема да чека вујче краткопрсте да ја спаси од курето на копилето

Што направи бе она толку во последната сезона? Слезе по скали со фарбана коса и сите паднавте у несвест. Уште е теленце.

 

[Cannon]

Некој викаше дека било силување тоа на Санса, а што очекуваше она да се случи на прва брачна ноќ, да не чекаше кревет од ружи случајно?

И некој пиша дека сцената во книгите е многу поразлично опишана, па ако не му е тешко нека го ископира тој дел од книгата и нека го пастира тука (може и во спојлер ако некој не сака да го чита)

 

[Trpe Grozni]

Нема да може, бидејќи Санса во книгите е сеуште многу далеку од Винтерфал. Ова што и се случува на Санса во книгите (и тоа дестпати полошо) и се случува на една друга личност до некаде поврзана со Санса, барем во почетокот на книгите.
Инаку во Книгите Ремзи е и (до душа на кратко) и претходно женет, така да сега е вдовец и побогат за уште еден замок.

Нема да одам понатака, зошто не знам во кој правец ќе не водат режисерите и сценаристите на серијалов.

 

[old_School_mk]

Спојлер: Детали за сцената помеѓу Санса и Ремзи превземено од gameofthrones.wikia.com

Sansa's wedding night scene with Ramsay

• While the storylines with the Boltons in the North and Sansa Stark in the Vale are related in the novels, the TV series made a major condensation by having Sansa actually marry Ramsay Bolton. In the novels, Sansa marriesSweetrobin Arryn's cousin and heir Harrold Hardyng, while Ramsay marries a Northern girl taken prisoner and passed off as Arya - actually, Sansa's best friend Jeyne Poole, missing and presumed dead since Joffrey's coup at the end of the first novel. Jeyne was kept sexually enslaved in one of Littlefinger's brothels in the intervening years (apparently just out of Baelish's petty cruelty), then sent to the Boltons because, given that she grew up alongside the Stark girls in Winterfell, she could plausibly pass herself off as Arya when asked questions about the castle.
  • Ramsay's treatment of Jeyne Poole on their wedding night is horrific even by Ramsay's standards. Much of it is only implied, but Jeyne is left a horrified shell weeping so loudly at his abuse that much of the rest of the castle can hear it - Roose gets annoyed at this, because the guests in the castle are major Northern lords, and Ramsay is oblivious to how much he is infuriating all of them with his psychotic behavior. At one point Ramsay has Reek "warm up" Jeyne by performing oral sex on her, meant to humiliate both of them (this is the second time it is heavily implied in the novel that Ramsay castrated him). Reek dares not resist because he knows that Ramsay will severely punish both of them if he does (i.e. start cutting off fingers from both of them). It is heavily implied that Ramsay forced Jeyne to have sex with one of his hunting dogs for his own sick amusement, threatening to cut off her feet one at a time if she didn't.
  • In contrast, Ramsay's wedding night with Sansa Stark in the TV version was relatively toned down. He made Reek stay in the room to watch to humiliate them both, and Sansa is crying and clearly not enjoying what is happening, but he isn't doing everything he did to Jeyne in the novels (which would have probably been outright unfilmable, even by implication).
  • Westeros has no concept of sexual abuse within marriage, and most marriages among the nobility are not made for love but to secure political alliances. As in the real-life Middle Ages, once a woman is married her husband has the right to sexual access to her - particularly on their wedding night - and moreover, the woman is aware of this and that she doesn't really have viable options to deny him. That is, Ramsay has sex with Sansa and she is crying, but she isn't fighting him off - she knew the marriage would entail this (indeed, Littlefinger instructed her to basically seduce Ramsay). This is comparable to aspects of Cersei Lannister's marriage to Robert Baratheon: Cersei quickly grew to loathe Robert, but she never outright denied him sexual access to her - simply because she had no real options. Her father had commanded her to marry Robert to secure a political alliance, so she couldn't complain to Tywin about how Robert was treating her. Neither Cersei nor Robert would say that he ever "raped" her (particularly if she wasn't actively fighting him off), given that by definition in Westeros rape cannot legally occur between a husband and wife; similarly, neither Ramsay nor Sansa would describe their wedding night as "rape" in their understanding of the term, nor that he "forced" himself on her. "Rape" does occur within marriage in Westeros in the physical sense that a wife resists her husband throughout the sexual encounter (though this is not legally considered rape) - the young Jaime Lannister was horrified when he had to stand guard outside the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen's bedchambers as he raped his wife Queen Rhaella, fighting him every moment as he bit her and clawed at her. Sansa is disgusted to be having sex with Ramsay, but she is passively going along with it (in contrast with Jeyne Poole's torment in the novels).
• Even if the episode specifically Sansa as consenting on her wedding night with Ramsay - in the sense that it is something she knows she has to go through with at the moment - she is still crying and afraid of him now, unlike even the preceding episode, in which he was trying to frighten her in the dinner scene but she kept her composure (and even grinned smugly when Roose denigrated him). Fundamentally, in the novels Sansa's storyarc in the Vale is an advancement of her character: she is no longer a victim but a confident force in her own right. Jeyne Poole in the novels, in contrast, is purely a frightened victim. Their character arcs go in completely separate directions and cannot be easily superimposed over each other. Even if Sansa didn't have sex with Ramsay at all and they just remained betrothed at Winterfell, Sansa is now being presented as a crying, frightened captive again - which is a step backwards in her character arc.

 

[old_School_mk]

Спојлер: Критики за сцената

• The wedding night scene between Sansa and Ramsay met with very negative reaction from professional critics. Many described it as a rape scene - or, pointed out that even if the characters wouldn't call it rape in their culture, from a narrative perspective it was still so unsettling to viewers that it was functionally a rape scene to the audience.
  • Game of Thrones Wiki officially does not refer to it as "rape" because it wouldn't be called that in-universe and Sansa isn't actively resisting Ramsay, but this is part of her long-term plan to retake the North. This is not, however, an attempt to downplay the scene or to agree with potential defenses the TV producers might put forward, such as that it technically might not be termed "rape" as such. Rather, it is a blunt acknowledgement that even if entirely true, such defenses are insignificant: even if it is not conceptualized as rape in-universe, Ramsay reducing Sansa to crying and frightened inaction is still drastic damage to her character arc on its own.
• Others criticized how drastically it was altering Sansa's character arc - even if it wasn't "rape" in as many words, and in-universe Sansa wouldn't call it that, Sansa shifts from being the resourceful prisoner of Littlefinger or the Boltons getting by on her inner strength, to once again a crying and distraught hostage. Several also pointed out that it was the last in a long string of criticisms about Benioff and Weiss including violence against women in the TV series that isn't even in the novels (having Joffrey threaten and later kill Ros, threatening Meera Reed with rape, etc.) - and particularly, the controversy over how Benioff and Weiss handled The Jaime/Cersei sex scene in "Breaker of Chains". From all evidence it seems that the writers did not intend to portray Jaime raping Cersei, the camerawork in that scene was simply very confusing, but afterwards they were so afraid of drawing further criticism that they bizarrely avoided making any clear statement about it, even avoiding making Blu-ray commentary for the episode (after several months, the actors did eventually say that they never received any instructions from the writers or their script implying that they wanted it to be a rape scene). In short the writers never really intended it that way and Jaime didn't really rape Cersei in-universe, but Benioff and Weiss avoided reediting it out of fear that it would draw even more attention to it.
  • Therefore, despite being faced with that major controversy during Season 4, and facing general criticisms for invented scenes of sexual assault or threatened assault in the past four Seasons, Benioff and Weiss were nonetheless planning since the early writing stages of Season 2 to put Sansa in such a frightening position for viewers again. There was a great deal of frustration that the TV show's writers simply seem to have consistently ignored the already massive criticism of their ongoing overreliance upon rape-as-drama. A large degree of the anger at Sansa actually suffering through Ramsay having sex with her, as pointed out byTheMarySue.com and others, is not only its content or how it affected Sansa's storyarc - but that it is the latest in a long string of times when the writers used invented rape scenes as a cheap dramatic tool - culminating in the outburst over this latest changed scene, as the straw that broke the camel's back.
  • Alex Graves, the director of the Jaime/Cersei sex scene in Season 4's "Breaker of Chains" - who was at times frustratingly vague in his response to that episode, saying Jaime was "forcing himself" on Cersei only to then deny that he meant to portray him "raping" her - even went so far as to bizarrely make hints about the Ramsay/Sansa pairing to actress Sophie Turner as they were filming Season 4, as jokes at her expense. As Turner explained in an interview with Entertainment Weekly a day after this wedding night scene aired: "Last season [Thrones director] Alex Graves decided to give me hints. He was saying, 'You get a love interest next season.' And I was all, 'I actually get a love interest!' - apparently assuming they meant they were going to cast Harrold Hardyng for Sansa's Vale storyarc in Season 5, to be her handsome and noble love interest as he was in the novels. Instead, Turner said, "So I get the scripts and I was so excited and I was flicking through and then I was like, "Aw, are you kidding me!?'"[1]
• Multiple critics also complained that Sansa wasn't even treated as the focus point of the scene: as Ramsay begins having sex with her, the camera doesn't actually show it (to create an effect of off-screen horror), but even so, the camera zooms in on Reek's horrified reaction - when it could just as easily have zoomed in on Sansa's face or eyes, to show her reaction without making it more graphic. Fundamentally this is not a condensation of Sansa's Vale storyline with the Bolton storyline in the North: Sansa is simply inserted into the role of Jeyne Poole without clear direction as to how this is supposed to actually affect her overall storyarc.
• Others questioned why the TV producers chose to condense the Sansa and Bolton storylines together - which Benioff said was partially because Sansa is a main character they didn't want to leave sidelined for an entire season as her Vale storyline is largely on the periphery of the narrative - when there was the option to simply give her all or most of the season on break. Bran Stark's storyline was put on hold in Season 5 and he does not appear at all. Other major characters had seasons when they did relatively little in the corresponding novel so they simply did not appear very frequently in that TV season, such as Jaime and Daenerys in Season 2.
• As for the specific reactions of several major critics and review sites:
  • TheMarySue.com went so far as to, after careful deliberation by their writing staff, officially announce that they will no longer actively promote the TV series, including canceling their running recap and review article series devoted to it. As their chief editor Jill Pantozzi said, this cannot be waved aside as an inevitableresult of the need to condense longer storyarcs in adaptation, but that Benioff and Weiss were aware or should have been aware that this would both offend viewers in the short term and damage the integrity of Sansa's characterization in the long term. She concluded that: "The show has creators. They make the choices. They chose to use rape as a plot device. Again."[2]
  • Salon[3]s Steven Attewell said: "We already knew that Ramsay Bolton was a sadist and an abuser of women, we already knew that Theon Greyjoy was his tormented puppet. Showing Sansa’s dress ripped, showing her face shoved down into the bed, hearing her screams did nothing to reveal character, or advance the plot, or critique anything about Westerosi society or about our own conceptions of medieval society that hasn’t already been critiqued."[4]
  • Wired's Laura Hudson said: "In general, I'm not a big fan of people getting raped in entertainment as a manipulative way of heightening the stakes, but I'm even less of a fan of people getting raped in entertainment when it accomplishes absolutely nothing."[5]
  • Vanity Fair's Joanna Hudson said: "Was it really important to make that scene about Theon's pain? If Game of Thrones was going to go there, shouldn't they at least have had the courage to keep the camera on Turner's face? But the last thing we needed was to have a powerful young woman brought low in order for a male character to find redemption. No thank you."[6]
  • Vulture's Nina Shen Rastogi said: "To show Sansa being raped as the kicker to an episode — and then to cut to Theon, as if it’s his view, his reaction, his internalizing of the moment that matters — just felt like more of the same old same old we’ve been getting since Ros died, since Tansy was hunted, since Cersei was raped."
  • Hypable's Michal Schick said: "What character development could be wrung from this tragedy that could not have been created without a violent rape? Why does Game of Thrones — and so much popular entertainment — revert to this horrific crime when they want their female characters to “grow”?[7]
  • Bustle's Rachel Semigran said: "There are thousands of ways to make a character and a series compelling without having to humiliate and dehumanize her with sexual force. Come on, Game of Thrones, you should know better than that."[8]
• Vox's Jen Trolio said: "Now with Sansa and Ramsay, Game of Thrones is seemingly confirming that it has no idea how to use rape as a storytelling device — crass as it may sound, fictional sexual violence can be extremely powerful if managed carefully (see: The Americans) — and rape is just about the worst storytelling device to deploy clumsily.[9]
• New York Daily News's Lauren Morgan said: The show pretty much added a new, and in my opinion, entirely unnecessary victimization to her story. More concerningly, after Jaime’s rape of Cersei last season, it’s yet another rape Benioff and Weiss decided to add to the show that was not in the text and at this point, we don’t need anymore.[10]
• Writer Bryan Cogman said that Sansa is not intended to simply be a victim in her wedding night with Ramsay. Rather, she consciously chose to take part in the repugnant marriage for the long-term goal of retaking the North: "This isn't a timid little girl walking into a wedding night with Joffrey. This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland."[11] Therefore Sansa knew that she would have to let Ramsay have sex with her on their wedding night and chose to take part in Littlefinger's plan anyway, because having sex with Ramsay and being his wife will allow her to destroy the Boltons from within.
  • Cogman later clarified his remarks several days later via Twitter: "Hi all. Not going to comment further but I do want to clarify something from the @EW interview that was conducted on set a few months ago: The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY...NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry."[12]
• While Cogman was charged with scripting this specific episode the overall major storyarc decisions are made by Benioff and Weiss, including the decision to merge the Sansa and Bolton storylines which has affected all of Season 5. Unlike Cogman, they had no immediate response to this outcry over how merging the storylines has resulted in Sansa being tormented by Ramsay, even though her storyarc was reaching a point where she was becoming empowered. This is similar to how they offered no public response to the criticism over the Jaime/Cersei sex scene in "Breaker of Chains".
  • The most either said about it was as a general point when Season 5 began, when Benioff joined Cogman in an interview with Entertainment Weekly, explaining they had intended to merge the plotlines since the early writing phases of Season 2:[13]
    • David Benioff: "We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season. If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character (Jeyne Poole) that's not in the show."
    • Bryan Cogman: "The seeds were planted early on in our minds. In the books, Sansa has very few chapters in the Vale once she's up there. That was not going to be an option for one of our lead characters. While this is a very bold departure, [we liked] the power of bringing a Stark back to Winterfell and having her reunite with Theon under these circumstances...You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies — who is an incredibly talented actor who we've followed for five years and viewers love and adore — do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in."[14]
• Laura Bradley of Slate.com proposed a theory so interesting that it was retweeted by Elio and Linda, the owners of Westeros.org: it is possible that the next few episodes might show that Sansa was acting the entire time. She has realized that Ramsay is too insane to ever seduce to her will, but she wouldn't want to tip him off that she is actively planning to betray the Boltons. Therefore, logically, if Ramsay was expecting her to be frightened, submissive, and outright crying, she may have just been putting on a performance to match his expectations - and thus erase his suspicions. It is unknown how this will play out in the remaining four episodes.[15]

 

[Hurin]

Што направи бе она толку во последната сезона? Слезе по скали со фарбана коса и сите паднавте у несвест. Уште е теленце.

Излажа за бејлиш. Се осеќаше дека почнува да ја разбира играта

 

[Zedd]

1000 пати полоша беше сцената/те со Теон ама немаше вакви глупости по нет. Од една страна феминистките бараат рамноправност од друга сожалување

 

[DRACARYS]

анса бе? Шо толку знае шо прави? Еве 5 сезони чекаме да направи нешто непредвидливо.
Ко што видов у привју за следна епизода гличи и цмиздри пред Ремзи. Уау... многу е сменета од она што го правеше у Кингс Лендинг.

Изгубив надеж во неа уште прва сезона ко не го турна Џофри од горе дур ја тераше да гледат како висит главата од татко и Нед обесена т.е закачена на кол.

 

[Ilumious]

Некој викаше дека било силување тоа на Санса, а што очекуваше она да се случи на прва брачна ноќ, да не чекаше кревет од ружи случајно?

И некој пиша дека сцената во книгите е многу поразлично опишана, па ако не му е тешко нека го ископира тој дел од книгата и нека го пастира тука (може и во спојлер ако некој не сака да го чита)

Проблемот е што у книгите Ремзи не се жени со Санса. Се жени со рандом курва и го праќа Теон орално да ја задоволи за да си игра со него пред да ја измалтретира тој три пати бетер од ова Коа видов дека ја договараат Санса во првите епизоди одма помислив на Санса фан клубот тука, poor kids ама не беше ништо посебно Ова што го сменија од книгите е катастрофа, освен делов со Санса и Болтон, на тоа му давам шанса, може да испадне нешто добро. Ама ова со Џејми, Сенд Снејкс... [emoji276]

Не сум дома да пастирам од телефон сум, ако може некој нека пастира, ако не, кога ќе дојдам.