A
Хеленизмот - Европска измислица од 18 век
- Креатор на темата Katunec
- Време на започнување
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Majkata, samite priznavaat deka istoriskite pravila i zakonomernosti ne vazhele koga go stvarale mitotot za Grcite vo 19 vek.
))Profesor Margaret Makmilan od Toronto (vnuka na britanskiot Minister za nadvoreshni raboti - Mekmilan) pishuva za zakviot odnos ne samo od strana na Zapadot tuku i na samite Grci preku primerot na grchkiot vodach Venizelos. Za nego taa pishuva deka sakal na Grcija da i pripadnat pola od teritoriite na deneshna Albanija i cela Turcija!!! A za megali idejata Makmilan veli deka se snishta i fantazii...
Makmilan citira nekoj grchki nacionalist od toa vreme koj rekol deka prirodata stavila granici za aspiraciite na narodite no ne i za Grcite. Za niv ne vazhele piorano i ne vazhat sega prirodnite zakoni!
"...The university of Athens, which has been
founded just after Greece won its independence
from the Ottomans, set out to revive classical culture;
even the language of instruction was that of Socrates
and Aristotle, not that of contemporary Greece. Many
of its studens like Venizelos saw themselves as missi-
onaries of a Hellenic world to their fellows who stil lived,
unredeemed under Turkish rule.
One day, in his sudy, Venizelos gathered his friends around
a large map. On it he drew the boundaries of the Greece he
wanted: a good half of today's Albania and almost all of
today's Turkey. Constantinople would be the capital.
This was the "megali idea" -- the "great idea." "Natue,"
said na early nationalist, "has set limits to the aspirations
of other men, but not to those of the Greeks. The Greeks were
not in the past and are not now subjects to the laws of nature."
The megali idea (the word "megalomania" comes from the same
root) was made up of dreems and fantasies..."
(Margaret MacMillan, "Paris 1919," 2003 Random House Trade Paparbacks, New York 2003, pg. 348)
.
A
anaveno
Гостин
Vo 1828 g. se znaelo koj e koj!!!
" Elements of Geography Ancient and Modern with Atlas "
by
J.E. Worcester, a.m. 1828
Ja ima na google books - besplatno.
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anaveno: odlichen post! Poglednete samo shto pishuva britanskiot pratenik vo Grcija, Edmund Lajons, vo 1841 godina - za toa shto bila, odnosno chija bila, Grcija. Spored nego, idejata za nezavisna Grcija bila apsurdna, Grcija morala da bide ili ruska ili britanska, a bidejkji morala da ne bide ruska, togash morala da bide britanska drzhavna tvorba.
" A truly independent Greece is an absurdity.
Greece can either be English or Russian, and
since she must not be Russian, it is necessary
that she be English. "
(Sir Edmund Lyons, British Minister to Greece, 1841)
IZVOR: (Richard Clogg, "A Concise History of Greece", Second Edition, Cambridge University Press, 1992, pg. 53)
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neznam dali bi se slozil deka izmislica na 19 vek, mozi e nekolku godini postara
kolku shto me sluzi sekjavanjeto:
- 529 godina, Justinijan gi zatvora Atiniskite i drugite filozofski / nauchni ustanovi na Balkanot, i celata "nehristijanska" literatura e unistena.
so toa se vleguva vo eden od najmracnite periodi na covestvoto, erata na neznaenje i totalen "hristijanski" teror, koj denes e narecen "mracno doba" ili "dark age of europe"
- 640 ili 641 godina, Arapite ja zavzemaat Aleksandrija, i eden cel nov svet na naucni misli i odkritija im se odkrivaat, koi podocna im sluzat vo osvojuvanjeto na Spanija - Andaluzija, ili al (v)andaluz , zemjata na Vandalite, ili Visi-Gotite. Normalno, delata koi im bile zanimlivi si gi prevele na Arapski...
edna od NAJGOLEMITE TAJNI e: biblijata, kako i mnogu drugi knigi / dokumenti, koi denes gi koristime za crpenje na informacii, se prevedeni prvo na nekolku lokalni jazici, a posle i na Latinski i "Staro-Grcki" OD ARAPSKI!!!!!
znaci, posle osvojuvanjeto na Andaluzija od strana na Mavrite (Berberite + Arapite) , doagja do masovno preveduvanje na antickata literatura, koja se pisuva na novoto "cudo", HARTIJATA, donesena od istite tie Arapi.(idejata kineska, malku remiksovana od arabive :p)
skoro 800 godini podocna, koga "hristijanskite" zatitnici Ferninand i Izabela go "osloboduvaat hristijanskiot svet od nevernicite" , preku 1 000 000 knigi se izgoreni.
----------------------
treba da se ispita potekloto na Abdal Rahman prviot, pod itno...
kaj se nasite istoricari
kolku shto me sluzi sekjavanjeto:
- 529 godina, Justinijan gi zatvora Atiniskite i drugite filozofski / nauchni ustanovi na Balkanot, i celata "nehristijanska" literatura e unistena.
so toa se vleguva vo eden od najmracnite periodi na covestvoto, erata na neznaenje i totalen "hristijanski" teror, koj denes e narecen "mracno doba" ili "dark age of europe"
- 640 ili 641 godina, Arapite ja zavzemaat Aleksandrija, i eden cel nov svet na naucni misli i odkritija im se odkrivaat, koi podocna im sluzat vo osvojuvanjeto na Spanija - Andaluzija, ili al (v)andaluz , zemjata na Vandalite, ili Visi-Gotite. Normalno, delata koi im bile zanimlivi si gi prevele na Arapski...
edna od NAJGOLEMITE TAJNI e: biblijata, kako i mnogu drugi knigi / dokumenti, koi denes gi koristime za crpenje na informacii, se prevedeni prvo na nekolku lokalni jazici, a posle i na Latinski i "Staro-Grcki" OD ARAPSKI!!!!!
znaci, posle osvojuvanjeto na Andaluzija od strana na Mavrite (Berberite + Arapite) , doagja do masovno preveduvanje na antickata literatura, koja se pisuva na novoto "cudo", HARTIJATA, donesena od istite tie Arapi.(idejata kineska, malku remiksovana od arabive :p)
skoro 800 godini podocna, koga "hristijanskite" zatitnici Ferninand i Izabela go "osloboduvaat hristijanskiot svet od nevernicite" , preku 1 000 000 knigi se izgoreni.
----------------------
treba da se ispita potekloto na Abdal Rahman prviot, pod itno...
kaj se nasite istoricari
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Во контекст на горењето на книги и уништувањето докази прочитав еднаш но не ми текнува точно од кого за македонските-словенски записи од Света Гора. Кога ќе го пронајдам точно кој го има спомнато ова , ќе пишам повторно. Поентата ми беше следново. Човекот(познат македонец) живеел во 19 век и во некое негово излагање за Македонското прашање вели дека (од моментот на пишувањето-19 век) пред 30тина години кога започнало наглото ширење на грчката пропагнда низ Беломорска Македонија, се уништиле, верувале или не 1,500,000 КНИГИ НА МАКЕДОНСКИ ЈАЗИК. тој ја изразува својата тага, за ненавременото реагирање, иако се претпоставувал таквиот потег од страна на грчките монаси и свештеници.........:cry:
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prasanjeto e, dokolku mnogu dela se prevedeni na Arapski, i potoa od Arapski na lokalni andaluziski jazici, i potoa na Latinski i "Staro-Grcki"...
na koj jazik bile napisani originalite, i so koe pismo?
i, zosto mora da gorat knigi i biblioteki kaj sho ima nesto povrzano so Makedonija?
sto se krie?
na koj jazik bile napisani originalite, i so koe pismo?
i, zosto mora da gorat knigi i biblioteki kaj sho ima nesto povrzano so Makedonija?
sto se krie?
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Многу добро сиже и анализа на проблемот дал еден Грк, Гаврилис:[/SIZE][/FONT]
Reluctant Europeans
Negotiating Greek Identity during the Macedonia Crisis
MAKING CULTURAL ARTIFACTS (NINETEENTH AND TWENTIETH-CENTURY GREECE)
The modern Greek state came into being largely due to the intervention of the Great Powers who were, more often than not, in hostile opposition to the Ottoman Empire. The uncertainties of diplomacy coincided with a revival of the classics in Europe in which many political elites and intellectuals, British and French in particular, mingled with Greek scholars who lived abroad. Together, they idealized classical Greece as the root of Western civilization and dreamed of resuscitating antiquity in a modern Greek state. “Indeed the war was reported in the western press as a virtual replay of the Battle of Marathon and the Persian Wars. Brought up on a diet of romanticized classicism, the West offered to the Greeks a version of their ethnic identity they were simply in no position to refuse” (Just 1989: 83).
The Kingdom of Greece, which emerged in 1833 poor, tiny, devoid of infrastructure and run by entrenched local notables, found itself primed to inherit the honorific title of the source of European civilization (Herzfeld 1986). Many members of the Greek elite, in particular intellectuals and folklorists, treated antiquity as an issue of positioning and strategy (Friedman 1992). They used the past as defined by an enlightened collective of western scholars and statesmen to forge a cultural identity which would be instilled in the masses though the institutions of the state and would facilitate the cultural and political shift of Greece from a waning, autocratic East to a waxing community of Enlightened western nations.
Membership in the perceived West, however, required that the state reach deep into the trenches of society and lift local loyalties and identities up to the realm of the nation-state. Identities had been tied to locale (i.e., village or city of origin), and the peasantry had not yet experienced a unity expressed through a nation-state (Just 1989; Kitromilides 1990). Elites and intellectuals, both in the state and in conjunction with it, standardized and nationalized culture through the military and pedagogical institutions of the state. Peasants in the army, collected from all parts of the country, now lived under the same shabby barrack roofs and became aware of each other’s existence. Dialects were shamed out of existence as the army operated in standard Greek (Kitromilides 1990). The schools had a similar function, teaching children about their glorious past and propagating a form of purified Greek known as katharevousa. Katharevousa, the officially de-Turkified and archaizing language, was both an attempt to win Western approval and to re-enforce the modern Greek’s awareness of his or her Hellenic descent (Herzfeld 1986: 21).
As Hellenic descent offered Greece a legitimate place among western states, Greek scholars were quite protective of their theories on cultural continuity. The Falmerayer Thesis is one case in point. Jakob Philipp Falmerayer, a nineteenth-century pan-German nationalist, rejected the idea that Greeks had an ancient ancestry, and alleged that they were nothing less than a heavy mix of most of the Balkan’s ethnic groups. Scholars and political elites in Greece denounced Falmerayer in unison and presented counterarguments to his thesis (Herzfeld 1986: 76).
The state’s classical bearings also brought the cultural and upper echelons of the state in conflict with the Orthodox church. The Patriarchate had opposed the state’s aggressive cultural connections with the pagan world. Moreover, the church was seen as an Ottoman political institution which could impede the state’s project to co-opt local, religious identities. The obsession of the Greek state with the classical ancestry was relaxed as the nineteenth century wore on. Scholars began to elaborate cultural continuity theories which included the Byzantine Empire as a crucial link between classical and modern Greece. Competing Slavic nationalisms also gave a sense of urgency to the state and church to cooperate in a nation-building project. The creation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in the 1870s – an independent Orthodox church which began acting according to Bulgarian national interests – is one event which further tied the Orthodox church to the nationalizing Greek state. The tension between the secular, classical bearings of the Greek state and the Orthodox ideals was never truly resolved, although creating strict dichotomies between the two is difficult.
What is clear is that the state- and nation-building experience of the nineteenth century established a set of cultural artifacts which referred to several glorious Greek pasts, most notably classical Greece and secondly Orthodoxy. Before discussing the uses of these cultural symbols in the 1990s, it is important to contextualize them in the irredentist project of the Greek state as it scrambled with other Balkan states to profit from Ottoman decline. ...
http://www.c3.hu/scripta/scripta0/replika/honlap/english/02/03gavri.htm
Reluctant Europeans
Negotiating Greek Identity during the Macedonia Crisis
MAKING CULTURAL ARTIFACTS (NINETEENTH AND TWENTIETH-CENTURY GREECE)
The modern Greek state came into being largely due to the intervention of the Great Powers who were, more often than not, in hostile opposition to the Ottoman Empire. The uncertainties of diplomacy coincided with a revival of the classics in Europe in which many political elites and intellectuals, British and French in particular, mingled with Greek scholars who lived abroad. Together, they idealized classical Greece as the root of Western civilization and dreamed of resuscitating antiquity in a modern Greek state. “Indeed the war was reported in the western press as a virtual replay of the Battle of Marathon and the Persian Wars. Brought up on a diet of romanticized classicism, the West offered to the Greeks a version of their ethnic identity they were simply in no position to refuse” (Just 1989: 83).
The Kingdom of Greece, which emerged in 1833 poor, tiny, devoid of infrastructure and run by entrenched local notables, found itself primed to inherit the honorific title of the source of European civilization (Herzfeld 1986). Many members of the Greek elite, in particular intellectuals and folklorists, treated antiquity as an issue of positioning and strategy (Friedman 1992). They used the past as defined by an enlightened collective of western scholars and statesmen to forge a cultural identity which would be instilled in the masses though the institutions of the state and would facilitate the cultural and political shift of Greece from a waning, autocratic East to a waxing community of Enlightened western nations.
Membership in the perceived West, however, required that the state reach deep into the trenches of society and lift local loyalties and identities up to the realm of the nation-state. Identities had been tied to locale (i.e., village or city of origin), and the peasantry had not yet experienced a unity expressed through a nation-state (Just 1989; Kitromilides 1990). Elites and intellectuals, both in the state and in conjunction with it, standardized and nationalized culture through the military and pedagogical institutions of the state. Peasants in the army, collected from all parts of the country, now lived under the same shabby barrack roofs and became aware of each other’s existence. Dialects were shamed out of existence as the army operated in standard Greek (Kitromilides 1990). The schools had a similar function, teaching children about their glorious past and propagating a form of purified Greek known as katharevousa. Katharevousa, the officially de-Turkified and archaizing language, was both an attempt to win Western approval and to re-enforce the modern Greek’s awareness of his or her Hellenic descent (Herzfeld 1986: 21).
As Hellenic descent offered Greece a legitimate place among western states, Greek scholars were quite protective of their theories on cultural continuity. The Falmerayer Thesis is one case in point. Jakob Philipp Falmerayer, a nineteenth-century pan-German nationalist, rejected the idea that Greeks had an ancient ancestry, and alleged that they were nothing less than a heavy mix of most of the Balkan’s ethnic groups. Scholars and political elites in Greece denounced Falmerayer in unison and presented counterarguments to his thesis (Herzfeld 1986: 76).
The state’s classical bearings also brought the cultural and upper echelons of the state in conflict with the Orthodox church. The Patriarchate had opposed the state’s aggressive cultural connections with the pagan world. Moreover, the church was seen as an Ottoman political institution which could impede the state’s project to co-opt local, religious identities. The obsession of the Greek state with the classical ancestry was relaxed as the nineteenth century wore on. Scholars began to elaborate cultural continuity theories which included the Byzantine Empire as a crucial link between classical and modern Greece. Competing Slavic nationalisms also gave a sense of urgency to the state and church to cooperate in a nation-building project. The creation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in the 1870s – an independent Orthodox church which began acting according to Bulgarian national interests – is one event which further tied the Orthodox church to the nationalizing Greek state. The tension between the secular, classical bearings of the Greek state and the Orthodox ideals was never truly resolved, although creating strict dichotomies between the two is difficult.
What is clear is that the state- and nation-building experience of the nineteenth century established a set of cultural artifacts which referred to several glorious Greek pasts, most notably classical Greece and secondly Orthodoxy. Before discussing the uses of these cultural symbols in the 1990s, it is important to contextualize them in the irredentist project of the Greek state as it scrambled with other Balkan states to profit from Ottoman decline. ...
http://www.c3.hu/scripta/scripta0/replika/honlap/english/02/03gavri.htm
B
Borg_Drone
Гостин
.
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Eve vo potkrepa na ovaa moja konstatacija za osnovnite grchki partii pogore -- "angliska", "ruska" i "francuska" (sekoja narechena taka spored drzhavata za koja Grcite mislele kje im pomogne da ja izgradat Grcija) -- da vidime shto pishuva t.e. citira Richard Clogg.
Imeno, Clogg citira mislenje na Emanuel Poidis od 1875 godina, spored koe i tuka Grcite oddudaraat, ne za da vrshat polezna opshtestveno-politichka funkcija, tuku da si go gledat samo svojot zadnik. Toa im e praksa od togash do denes vo EU:
" Elsewhere parties come into existence
because people disagree with each other,
each wanting different things. In Greece,
the exact opposite occurs: what causes
parties to come into existence and compete
with each other is the admirable accord with
which all seek the same thing: to be fed at the
public's expense. " (Emmanouil Roidis, 1875)
IZVOR: (Richard Clogg, "A Concise History of Greece", Second Edition, Cambridge University Press, 1992, pg. 59)
A
anaveno
Гостин
3а жал, неможам секаде да постирам.
3а среќа:
YAVAN
Little wonder, then that the Irano-Semitic peoples considered the Greeks to be effeminate. In fact, the terms for Greek in the Irano-Semitic world
Yauna (Old Iranian),Yona (Pali),Javan (Greek),Yavana (Prakrit),besides meaning barbarian or savage, are derived from the root-word
yoni, meaning vagina.
from PIE base (Sanscrit)yavan=a rider horseman , invader , aggressor
yavan=javan-c (mod. Mac)=a rider horseman
yavan="javan"(mod.Mac)=fucked
Finally, we found the etymology for the word "Yavan" (Greeks)
3а нивна несреќа...
P.S Oд Мисирков:
Poglednete samo shto pishuva britanskiot pratenik vo Grcija, Edmund Lajons, vo 1841 godina - za toa shto bila, odnosno chija bila, Grcija. ............
Hасока:
"British Documents of Foreign Affairs", Part I, Series F, Europe 1848 - 1914, Vol. 14 "Greece. 1847 - 1914", University publications of America
"Меморандум за античките Граници на Грција", Bоен историчар, мајорот Ардаг...
3а среќа:
YAVAN
Little wonder, then that the Irano-Semitic peoples considered the Greeks to be effeminate. In fact, the terms for Greek in the Irano-Semitic world
Yauna (Old Iranian),Yona (Pali),Javan (Greek),Yavana (Prakrit),besides meaning barbarian or savage, are derived from the root-word
yoni, meaning vagina.
from PIE base (Sanscrit)yavan=a rider horseman , invader , aggressor
yavan=javan-c (mod. Mac)=a rider horseman
yavan="javan"(mod.Mac)=fucked
Finally, we found the etymology for the word "Yavan" (Greeks)
3а нивна несреќа...
P.S Oд Мисирков:
Poglednete samo shto pishuva britanskiot pratenik vo Grcija, Edmund Lajons, vo 1841 godina - za toa shto bila, odnosno chija bila, Grcija. ............
Hасока:
"British Documents of Foreign Affairs", Part I, Series F, Europe 1848 - 1914, Vol. 14 "Greece. 1847 - 1914", University publications of America
"Меморандум за античките Граници на Грција", Bоен историчар, мајорот Ардаг...
TpH_Bo_OkO
Трноризец
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Анавено, читам постот еве петти пат. Се убив од смеење! 
A
anaveno
Гостин
Cмеј се. Jас се убив од барање по санскрит...и потврда од индиски етимологисти.
Tочно е, ете линкови!
E сега тоа со "јаван" по нашки. Hе ни треба етимологист...
Tочно е, ете линкови!
E сега тоа со "јаван" по нашки. Hе ни треба етимологист...
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Eve da vidime kako Drojzen, chovekot shto go izmisli Helenizmot, pogreshno go opishuva pohodot na Aleksandar III Makeodnski vo Azija, navodno za da stvori dominacija na Helenskata kultura i preku toa da ja povrze Indija so Azija:
" Alexander could not consider simply annexing peoples whose civilization, alien but highly developed, impressed him even more forcibly as he penetrated deeper insider the country. To federate all the territories on the near side of the Indus, to extend his influence to the other side of the river, and thus ensure so great a pre-eminence for Hellenic culture that it would in time lead to the union of India with the rest of Asia -- these appear to have been his guiding principles in this campaign. ..."
(J.G. Droysen, Geschichte Alexanders des Grossen (Berlin, R.v. Decker, 1917)
PIRRO
Walking away
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Македонците немале ништо заедничко со грците... биле сродни со траките и илирите... Според 99% од светските научници албанскиот јазик е се што останало од тракијскиот,илиркиот и македонскиот јазик иако во модерните српски,бугарски и македонскиот јазик има доста зборови од древниот "пелазгиски" јазик...
Штета што темата за илирите,траките и македонците се затвори...
Докажано е дека античниот македонски јазик бил различен од грчкиот... ако со докажувањето очекуваш да се докаже дека античниот македонски јазик бил различен од грчкиот а сличен со овој македонски јазик на кој дискутираме, тоа малку тешко...
Словени немало во Атина во 1821г. ?... Или со ова грци под наводници мислиш на словени ?... Да се чуди чаек...
Поимот варвари во антиката се сваќал како денешниот поим "селјак", нецивилизирани и со различен јазик само по дијалект или во "жаргон" што се вели денес... Инаку грциве немаат ништо заедничко со ниту едни, ниту со хелени,ниту со епирци ниту со македонци нормално со исклучок на арванитите и македонците...
Варвари исто така се употребувало за различно население,земја...
Во римската империја за варвари се сметале цела римска империја надвор од Рим, надворешните земји,соседни од римската империја се нарекувале перегрини...
Толку тешко ли е да се докаже дека во древно време се зборувал еден сроден јазик ?... Ова е веќе докажано ама ете албанскиот јазик ти е наследник на древниот јазик... Извини ако те разочарав ама тоа е тоа, не е македонскиот јазик кој денес се зборува наследник на древниот макеоднски јазик... Делумно да, ама треба малку македонските експерти,лингвисти и др. малку да поработат и да ги отргнат македонските зборови од словенските зборови и ете ви го древниот македонски јазик... Инаку постирав нешто за еден бугарски лингвист кој ги разделил старите пелазгиски зборови од денешниот бугарски јазик...
А ти Гоцо пред 2-3 месеци ми вети дека ќе постираш доказ, запис од античко време кој е ист со денешниот македонски јазик... уште се работи на случајот ??? Поздрав :smir: