Потеклото на Албанците

Picasso`

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Haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) - Modern Descendants of Ancient Egyptians

Sergey V. Lutak and Anatole A. Klyosov

2009

Preface

The question about where and when the ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35) lived is not solved until now. The majority of authors agree that the ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35) lived in the Upper Paleolith from 15 to 30 thousand years ago.
Concerning a place, there are two basic locations for the origin of M35: East Africa (Horn of Africa, Ethiopia) and Middle East (Arabia). However, these details of a place and time are not so important for us. It is important that all researchers said: in XII millenium BC the people belonging to haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35) lived in Ethiopia, were hunter-gatherers, and spoke Proto-Hamito-Semitic language.

The hypothesis of linguists Igor Diakonoff and Lionel Bender localizes the native land of Hamito-Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) languages in Southeast Sahara and in adjoining areas of East Africa. At that time these territories were still favorable for human life. If hypothesis of Igor Diakonoff and Lionel Bender is true, the initial carrier of Hamito-Semitic languages was haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35). Later when Hamites of E-subclades have moved to the Near East, they have transferred Proto-Hamito-Semitic language to haplogroup J1 (Semites), ancestors of modern Arabs and Jews.

Approximately in the beginning of XI millennium BC the climate on the Earth began to change, and not to the best. The epoch of heat and high humidity had ended. The long period of cold and arid climate had come.

Possibly, these changes of a climate promoted that the Hamitic tribes of East Africa belonging mainly to haplogroup E1b1b1-M35, have begun the movement from Ethiopia on the north, in areas more favorable for life. At first – to Nubia, and later - to Egypt which was only slightly populated that time. So, for example, culture Esna existing 12-16 thousand years ago in the Upper Egypt, had disappeared, not having left successors.

In Nubia the situation was a different one. It is probable at the same time (or some later) when Hamitic tribes E1b1b1 began to occupy Nubia from the southeast, from the southwest there have come Nilotes and other tribes speaking in Nilo-Saharan languages and having mainly haplogroup A3b2 and, to a lesser degree, haplogroup B. On some reason to Egypt have moved mainly Hamites E1b1b1. Nilotes A3b2 had remained in Nubia. In due course, the most part of the population of Nubia, irrespective of a primary origin, had switched to Nilo-Saharan languages.

The Hamitic men having SNP-mutations M35, have occupied Nubia 12 thousand years ago and began to move into Egypt. Generations changed each other, people were born and died, and at some point from the father having SNP M35, the son with additional SNP-mutation M78 was born. This boy became the founder of clan E1b1b1a-M78.
Y-haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) is currently extended to the people of South-East and Southern Europe (Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians-Slavs and Southern Italians), North-East and East Africa (Egyptian Arabs and Copts, Western Sudanians, Somalis and Ethiopians) and, to a lesser degree, Western Asia (Turks-Cypriotes, Arabs-Druzs and Palestinian Arabs). From approximately 400 haplotypes E-M78 in database of YSearch, 12 persons (that is 3 %) have specified the native land Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

Having compared mutations in 448 haplotypes of nowadays living men having SNP-mutation M78, from 65 populations of Europe, Africa and Asia, we have calculated, that the common ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1a was born at least 9975±1500 years bp (see the end of this article). It was, possibly, in Libyan desert which at that time represented the fertile lowland fed with waters of Nile. To a question of the native land and life time of the founder of clan E1b1b1a-M78 we still will return, after the description of all subgroups.

According to many historians, in particular Michael Haag and Béatrix Midant-Reynes, during the period between 12 and 8 thousand years ago territory of Egypt (especially the valley of Nile) was gradually occupied by new tribes which were hunter-gatherers and fishermen. These tribes, apparently, belonged to east and western branches of Hamites and differed from each other by the anthropological and genetic accessory.

Apparently, the date of birth of the common ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1a-M78 is necessary for the period of beginning Hamitics expansion into Egypt.

However, settling of Egypt by new tribes occurred not only from the south (from Nubia), but also from the West (from Sahara). From the south mainly went East Hamites E1b1b1, belonging to Cushitic Big Branch of the Western Racial Trunk. From the West into Egypt moved Western Hamitics E1a (and, probably, E1b1a), possibly, belonging to African Big Branch of Tropical Racial Trunk. Hamitic tribes originally lodged along steep edge of a deserted plateau over a valley of Nile and on borders of the Fayum oasis and Delta.

About 11300 years ago in Sahara the Period of Rains has begun. Period of Rains has softened a climate and has revived a life in desert. It has led to repeated settling of Libyan Desert. And here, instead of in a valley of Nile, for the first time about 9 thousand years ago has appeared cattle breeding and agriculture. Only about 8 thousand years ago when the Period of Rains has ended, and the desert became again lifeless, inhabitants have left it. Hamitic tribes gradually moved in a valley of Nile from a plateau turning to desert, in due course passing to a settled way of life.
Haplogroups of modern Egypt according to Luis et al. (2004) [data are a little approximated]:


E – 40% (58/147)
… E1b1b1a (M78)…. 18%
… E1b1b1b (M81)…... 8, 2 %
… E1b1b1c (M123)…. 6, 8 %
… E1b1b1* (M35)…... 2, 7 %
… E1b1a7 (M191)…... 1, 4 %
… E1b1a* (M2)……... 1, 4 %
… E1a* (M33)………... 1, 4 %
J – 32% (47/147)
… J (x J2)…………… 20%
… J2 (x J2a2, J2b)…… 8, 2 %
… J2a2 (M67)……… 2, 7 %
… J2b (M12)……… 0, 7 %
K (x R1, R2) – 8, 8 % (13/147)
G (M201) – 8, 8 % (13/147)
T (M70) – 8, 2 % (12/147)
R – 7, 5 % (11/147)
… R1a1 (M17)…….. 2, 7 %
… R1b1b2 (M269)… 2, 0 %
… R1 ……………… 2, 0 %
… R2 (M124)……… 0, 7 %
A3b2 (M13) – 2, 7 % (4/147)
P (x R1, R2) – 0, 7 % (1/147)
I (M170) – 0, 7 % (1/147)

On these data, Haplogroup E, presented by different subclades (half of all E-subclades is E1b1b1a-M78) is prevailing among the modern population of Egypt (40 %). This is despite a powerful Arabian expansion of haplogroup J from the Near East in the Middle Ages. Subclades of haplogroup J now make 32 % of the population of Egypt.

It is important to notice, that from all modern Egyptian Haplogroups only Subclades of haplogroup E1b1b1 (except E-M123) and E1b1a, and also E1a and A3b2 have the African origin.
Other Y-haplogroups have got to Egypt (mainly, in Northern) during the different periods of time from Asia and East Mediterranean. The first by time we can name intrusion of the Asian people in 22nd century BC, then there was an arrival of Hyksos in 17 century BC and disembarkation of "the sea people” in 13 and 12 centuries BC (their descendants – mashuashu). In the I millenium BC there were intrusions of Libyans, Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians. During Our (Christian) Era Egypt was visited serially by Romans, Arabs and Turks. All of them, undoubtedly, have left the genetic trace in Egypt which we see and now in a kind of haplogroups J, K, G, T, R, P and I.

Let's pass more in detail to haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) and its subgroups. For the last 11 thousand years generations varied, people were born and died, and from fathers having SNP M78 sons with new SNP-mutations were born.

According to classification of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) 2009 haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) includes five subclades:
E1b1b1a1 (V12), E1b1b1a2 (V13), E1b1b1a3 (V22), E1b1b1a4 (V65) and E1b1b1a5 (M521). Except listed five, it is possible to allocate also sixth subclade E-M78 *, i.e. not having descending SNP-mutations.



Subclades received their numbers as their opening, i.e. in the beginning have been opened SNP V12, then V13 etc. We will break this order and we will tell you about subgroups E1b1b1a as their occurrence, since the oldest and finishing the most recent.

Average rate of mutations in 11-markers haplotypes

The majority of haplotypes used in the present work are 11-markers ones.
(DYS 19, 413a, 393, 460, 461, 413b, 391, 439, GATAA10, YCAIIa, YCAIIb).
It is not a standard format of haplotypes, and the calibrated values of average rate of mutations for these haplotypes are not present in the literature.

For calibration we used a series of 88 haplotypes of the MacDonald clan (Klyosov, 2008a; 2009) which contain 34 mutations per listed 736 markers (not all 88 haplotypes contained all these 11 specified markers). Since the common ancestor of the given clan Lord John of Isles died in 1386, that is about 650 years, or 26 generations back (if to set a generation for 25 years). The number of years per generation in this case can be set as any, since it is tied to the 650 years. If for example, we set 50 years per generation, then Lord John lived 13 generations ago. It will be still 650 years. In other words, if we pick 25 years per generation, and calculate mutation rates per generation, we calculate mutation rates per generation of 25 years. 25 years per generation sounds reasonably for a common person. If someone likes 65 years per generation, or 30 years per generation on that matter, hence, considers that Lord John lived 10 or 21.7 generations back, respectively, it would just change the average mutation rate, but lives 650 years. In this work we consider that Lord John lived 650 years back, that is 26 generations with 25 years per generation. We take it as a mathematical value. Changing the number of years per generation would change the average mutation rate constant, but the final result in years to a common ancestor would be the same. Hence, no more discussion on that matter

34 mutations on 736 markers per 26 generations will occur at average mutation rate of 34/736/26 = 0.0018 mutations in a marker per generation (of 25 years), or 0.02 mutations in 11-markers haplotype per generation. We will apply these values in all calculations using mutations in 11-marker haplotype.

Доволно е ова?
 

Picasso`

Schizophrenic!
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Нема таква генетика кај албанците...

Кај албанците има овоа...

I think that E-V13 in the Balkans predates the divisions into Illyrian/Dalmatian and Thracian/Dacian and probably Macedonian/Greek. The best terms for E-V13 within these more "modern" populations are "proto-Balkan" or "Pelasgian". J2b1-M102 may be Neolithic, however, although it is commonly found in association with E-V13 populations.

I like to work by narrowing a problem down to a manageable size and series of questions if possible, and answer those thoroughly before moving on to the next problem/series of questions. That means that I am presently reluctant to address the origins of J2b1-M102, since I have not studied it very closely. I can only say that it appears to be associated today with E-V13 populations and that Cruciani found they have similar expansion times.

Best regards,

Steve
 

Bratot

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Haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) - Modern Descendants of Ancient Egyptians

Sergey V. Lutak and Anatole A. Klyosov

2009

Preface

The question about where and when the ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35) lived is not solved until now. The majority of authors agree that the ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35) lived in the Upper Paleolith from 15 to 30 thousand years ago.
Concerning a place, there are two basic locations for the origin of M35:
1. East Africa (Horn of Africa, Ethiopia) and

2. Middle East (Arabia).


However, these details of a place and time are not so important for us. It is important that all researchers said: in XII millenium BC the people belonging to haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35) lived in Ethiopia, were hunter-gatherers, and spoke Proto-Hamito-Semitic language.

The hypothesis of linguists Igor Diakonoff and Lionel Bender localizes the native land of Hamito-Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) languages in Southeast Sahara and in adjoining areas of East Africa. At that time these territories were still favorable for human life. If hypothesis of Igor Diakonoff and Lionel Bender is true, the initial carrier of Hamito-Semitic languages was haplogroup E1b1b1 (M35). Later when Hamites of E-subclades have moved to the Near East, they have transferred Proto-Hamito-Semitic language to haplogroup J1 (Semites), ancestors of modern Arabs and Jews.

Approximately in the beginning of XI millennium BC the climate on the Earth began to change, and not to the best. The epoch of heat and high humidity had ended. The long period of cold and arid climate had come.

Possibly, these changes of a climate promoted that the Hamitic tribes of East Africa belonging mainly to haplogroup E1b1b1-M35, have begun the movement from Ethiopia on the north, in areas more favorable for life.
At first – to Nubia, and later - to Egypt which was only slightly populated that time. So, for example, culture Esna existing 12-16 thousand years ago in the Upper Egypt, had disappeared, not having left successors.



The Hamitic men having SNP-mutations M35, have occupied Nubia 12 thousand years ago and began to move into Egypt. Generations changed each other, people were born and died, and at some point from the father having SNP M35, the son with additional SNP-mutation M78 was born. This boy became the founder of clan E1b1b1a-M78.
Y-haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) is currently extended to the people of South-East and Southern Europe (Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians-Slavs and Southern Italians),
North-East and East Africa (Egyptian Arabs and Copts, Western Sudanians, Somalis and Ethiopians) and, to a lesser degree, Western Asia (Turks-Cypriotes, Arabs-Druzs and Palestinian Arabs).
From approximately 400 haplotypes E-M78 in database of YSearch, 12 persons (that is 3 %) have specified the native land Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.


According to many historians, in particular Michael Haag and Béatrix Midant-Reynes, during the period between 12 and 8 thousand years ago territory of Egypt (especially the valley of Nile) was gradually occupied by new tribes which were hunter-gatherers and fishermen. These tribes, apparently, belonged to east and western branches of Hamites and differed from each other by the anthropological and genetic accessory.

Apparently, the date of birth of the common ancestor of haplogroup E1b1b1a-M78 is necessary for the period of beginning Hamitics expansion into Egypt.



Haplogroups of modern Egypt according to Luis et al. (2004) [data are a little approximated]:


E – 40% (58/147)
… E1b1b1a (M78)…. 18%
… E1b1b1b (M81)…... 8, 2 %
… E1b1b1c (M123)…. 6, 8 %
… E1b1b1* (M35)…... 2, 7 %
… E1b1a7 (M191)…... 1, 4 %
… E1b1a* (M2)……... 1, 4 %
… E1a* (M33)………... 1, 4 %
J – 32% (47/147)
… J (x J2)…………… 20%
… J2 (x J2a2, J2b)…… 8, 2 %
… J2a2 (M67)……… 2, 7 %
… J2b (M12)……… 0, 7 %
K (x R1, R2) – 8, 8 % (13/147)
G (M201) – 8, 8 % (13/147)
T (M70) – 8, 2 % (12/147)
R – 7, 5 % (11/147)
R1a1 (M17)…….. 2, 7 %
… R1b1b2 (M269)… 2, 0 %
… R1 ……………… 2, 0 %
… R2 (M124)……… 0, 7 %
A3b2 (M13) – 2, 7 % (4/147)
P (x R1, R2) – 0, 7 % (1/147)
I (M170) – 0, 7 % (1/147)

On these data, Haplogroup E, presented by different subclades (half of all E-subclades is E1b1b1a-M78) is prevailing among the modern population of Egypt (40 %). This is despite a powerful Arabian expansion of haplogroup J from the Near East in the Middle Ages. Subclades of haplogroup J now make 32 % of the population of Egypt.

It is important to notice, that from all modern Egyptian Haplogroups only Subclades of haplogroup E1b1b1 (except E-M123) and E1b1a, and also E1a and A3b2 have the African origin.
Other Y-haplogroups have got to Egypt (mainly, in Northern) during the different periods of time from Asia and East Mediterranean. The first by time we can name intrusion of the Asian people in 22nd century BC, then there was an arrival of Hyksos in 17 century BC and disembarkation of "the sea people” in 13 and 12 centuries BC (their descendants – mashuashu). In the I millenium BC there were intrusions of Libyans, Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians.
During Our (Christian) Era Egypt was visited serially by Romans, Arabs and Turks. All of them, undoubtedly, have left the genetic trace in Egypt which we see and now in a kind of haplogroups J, K, G, T, R, P and I.

Let's pass more in detail to haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) and its subgroups. For the last 11 thousand years generations varied, people were born and died, and from fathers having SNP M78 sons with new SNP-mutations were born.

According to classification of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) 2009 haplogroup E1b1b1a (M78) includes five subclades:
E1b1b1a1 (V12), E1b1b1a2 (V13), E1b1b1a3 (V22), E1b1b1a4 (V65) and E1b1b1a5 (M521). Except listed five, it is possible to allocate also sixth subclade E-M78 *, i.e. not having descending SNP-mutations.



Subclades received their numbers as their opening, i.e. in the beginning have been opened SNP V12, then V13 etc. We will break this order and we will tell you about subgroups E1b1b1a as their occurrence, since the oldest and finishing the most recent.

Average rate of mutations in 11-markers haplotypes

The majority of haplotypes used in the present work are 11-markers ones.
(DYS 19, 413a, 393, 460, 461, 413b, 391, 439, GATAA10, YCAIIa, YCAIIb).
It is not a standard format of haplotypes, and the calibrated values of average rate of mutations for these haplotypes are not present in the literature.


Доволно е ова?
Picasso, дали во иднина кога ќе правиш копи-пасте ќе бидеш љубезен да ги средуваш вака текстовите, да означуваш важни делови и да не поштедуваш од читање работи кои не ни се важни за расправата?


Јас немам намера да дешифрирам цели копи-пасте текстови за кои се сомневам дека и самиот си ги прочитал, пред да ги копираш од албанските форуми, а не верувам дека некој од овие што ги избришав прочитал 1-2 реченици, ретко кој ќе се внесе во таквите монотони текстови кои сепак бараат и повисоко ниво на знаење.

Затоа најдобронамерно ти укажувам на ова.
 
A

anaveno

Гостин
Piggassovski...
i ilirite se Kavkazci i Kurdi...
ete za Canj....
aj za Ulcinj....
znaes li deka se vikal Kolhinium?

a znaez li kade bila Kolhida?

kaj Pond,AZIJA,KAVKAZ...
Herodot I 2, 104

citaj go Herodot,kako se preneseni iminjata na gradovite,planinskite lanci od KAVKAZ NAVAMU..
primer,Keraunijskite planini,koi gejcite gi vikale Akrokeraunijski planini....

i kazi,site istorici pisuvaat za oblast Ilirik,ama NIKADE ZA ILIRI....

treba posebna tema za koi bile Ilirite-NARODOT OD KAVKAZ
po niv dosol Shqipot....
 

Bratot

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Од темава се банирани 5 членови и избришани нивни 28 постови.

Последен пат опоменувам за нивото на дискусијата.
 
A

anaveno

Гостин
Piggassovski..
si slusnal li za KAVKAZKIOT IMPERATOR TARGAMOS OD 9 VEK....
imal sinovi ..megu drugite..so iminja Bardos i Lekos....
koi ima na svetot takvi iminja Bardim,Bard,Bral i Leka?
i toa od koga gi donele turcite,pred toa nikade nema takvi iminja...
osven na tie sto dosle vo Canj i Ulcinj od Kavkaz i Pond,toj Bardilis....


laznite iliri,Kavkazcite....
citaj go Leontim Roveli od 10 vek...
MIRDAT carot na Kartalija-KAVKAZ
MIRDITI....iljiri a?
 
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Piggassovski..
si slusnal li za KAVKAZKIOT IMPERATOR TARGAMOS OD 9 VEK....
imal sinovi ..megu drugite..so iminja Bardos i Lekos....
koi ima na svetot takvi iminja Bardim,Bard,Bral i Leka?
i toa od koga gi donele turcite,pred toa nikade nema takvi iminja...
osven na tie sto dosle vo Canj i Ulcinj od Kavkaz i Pond,toj Bardilis....


laznite iliri,Kavkazcite....
citaj go Leontim Roveli od 10 vek...
MIRDAT carot na Kartalija-KAVKAZ
MIRDITI....iljiri a?

коЈ бил Кралот Bardhyl? Знаеш? :)
 

Picasso`

Schizophrenic!
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Јазикот на Илирите бил Не-Европски, т.е. Афрички така да на Ajnaveno не му се познати тие ствари, тоа го буни и не знае кај тера.
 

nako

No1
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Уффф пикасо стануваш напорен со тие шифри и бројки, но не го добив суштинскиот одговор за Арнаутите, то-ес денешните Албанци-Косовари, Било кој турчин да прашаш ке ти каже што означува а некој кој ја знае малце повеќе историјата и ќе ти ја каже и потеклото на Арнаутите. Тој збор не го измислиле ни србите ни американците ни македонците, туку оној кој ве довел наваму.
 
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Уффф пикасо стануваш напорен со тие шифри и бројки, но не го добив суштинскиот одговор за Арнаутите, то-ес денешните Албанци-Косовари, Било кој турчин да прашаш ке ти каже што означува а некој кој ја знае малце повеќе историјата и ќе ти ја каже и потеклото на Арнаутите. Тој збор не го измислиле ни србите ни американците ни македонците, туку оној кој ве довел наваму.
Просветли не :) еве си прашал некој кој знае историја, па сподели го знаењето..што значи зборот арнаут?
 

Bratot

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Просветли не :) еве си прашал некој кој знае историја, па сподели го знаењето..што значи зборот арнаут?




АРНАУТ

- турецкое наименование албанца; разбојник

Словарь редких и забытых слов (В.П. Сомов. 2001)
http://www.kroka.ru/html/a/arnaut.html

АРНАУТ
"албанец", укр. арнаут – то же; отсјуда арнаутка "сорт пшеницы с твердыми семенами, Triticum durum", јужнорусск.; курск. арнаут "басурман" (Даль), Через тур. arnaut "албанец", также arnawyt (Радлов, 1, 303) из греч. , раньше , ; см. Фасмер, Гр.-сл. эт. 35 (с литер.); Mi.TEl. 1, 249. Ср. также др.-русск. Орнјаутскаја землја у Ив. Пересветова (XVI в.); см. Гудзиј, Хрест. 247.
http://www.slovopedia.com/22/192/1630081.html
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/vasmer/36329/арнаут



Harold William Vazelle Temperley: “the Mussulmanised Serbs known as Arnauts are the bitteres foes of the Serb“


ARNAVUTLUK, the Ottoman Turkish name for Albania.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arnavutluk
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnavutluk


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_exonyms#Albania
 
A

anaveno

Гостин
piggassovski...(ne razbiram dobro nikot,zatoa vaka:pos2:)
ajde..ajde...Jemen ne e Afrika....
Banu Ghassan se ottamu....
e sega,sto imate geni i od Afrika,toa e za istrazuvanje i dopolnuvanje...

vo shqip jazikot imate nga,koj go nema nikade vo PIE....
toj e samostojna morfema...
endha nga kjo rruge;“poshkoj nga shkolla
endha mnogu lici na oda(m) , a rruge na pruga=pat.....
poshkoj lici na pojdi.....
razbiras za sto ti kazuvam neli.....
Kavkazci-Kurdi i arapi imaat izvrteni nasi zborovi...i ruski...

e sega nga...

ne ste od Afrika i nezboruvate nisto africki?

znaes li kade ima nga?

vo AFRIKA.....

ke ti dadam samo eden primer,ime...Нганга...

ćka po thua?
sta?


nekoj prasa za imeto Bardhil,koj bil?
bil kaj mestoto Egrisse kaj Skadar.

a Egrisse e ime na pleme od KAVKAZ.

da ti objasnam.

Kolhidite se preselile od KAVKAZ na Jadran (Herodot i kompanija)
Bardos i Lekos bile ottamu...
Bardhil se preslikal....
pa Canj=Canji
pa za Ulcinj..
pa Egrisse...
pa Mirditi tuka i na KAVKAZ....
cel KAVKAZ okolu Skadar i navamu...

gledas,se ilirski,a KAVKAZKI.....

p.s...
i ne ste sami...
KAVKAZKOTO PLEME SVANI (SVANJI) od SVANTEA se naselilo vo CRNA GORA I ALBANIJA.
od niv se plemeto SPANJEVIC,koe smeta (SO PRAVO) deka dosle od KAVKAZ i deka ottamu imaat poteklo.Ic ne se sramat.
od niv se i SPONJE i SVANJE...
a SHQIPONJE?

p.s..
da ne se vika nekoj shqip slucajno GOGO?
takvo ime (cesto) ima vo Gruzija.
NONA mu e drugarka.
DEDA im e majka.

znaete i sami , da ne vi objasnuvam ,kolku vi se tersene so drugite PIE JAZICI,bas poimite majka,tatko,sestra,,,,,
 
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:pos2::pos2::pos2::pos2:

Еднаш сме од кавказ, еднаш сме вакви, еднаш такви...ама ова е легендарно :) Срби бе :)
Сите се срби, ама не разбираат. И македонците се срби, ама не сфаќаат. Уствари чекај бугари бевме а не знаевме. Аха, ми текна, сите се или бугари или срби, ама не разбираат, шо значи, само одбери си дали поише ти се свиѓа плава или зелена боја... :pipi: :helou:
 

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