Барам да ми кажеш која е целта на конверзацијата, и на постот што ти го постираш?
И сега на крај се обидуваш да ми кажеш дека Брд, мисли дека не само Албанците се ексклузивни носители на V13, туку и дека други го носат?
А како што сам викаш, за Перичич, се додека не тропнела Перичич нешто друго, ти ќе се сомневаш, истото е и со мене и со Брд, се додека тој не каже дека КОНЕЧНО е убеден дека е спротивно на она што тој некогаш се сомневал дека е, јас го земам тоа здраво за готово!
Пак не ја разбирам поентата на дискусијата, за која велиш дека се контрам, а цел агенс на оваа мини дискусија ја напраи Влатко1953, или поинаку беше не е битно.
Јас никаде не велам дека само албанците носат V13, но велам дека најмногу е застапен кај албанците, и тоа ми дава право да кажам дека Албанците се потомци на тие народи кој го носеле V13, и потомци на нивниот јазик, кој сигурно по модифицирана форма денес го зборуваат албанците, и е НАЈМНОГУ ЗАСТАПЕН кај албанците до од 45 до 50%, има и графикони каде што има области каде 100% е застапен а тоа е некаде кај Северна Албанија и Јужна Црна Гора, западно Косово. Поточно ПЛАНИНИТЕ.
Брд е носител на V13, и сам се нарекува Албаниан, ако сакаш прашај го има и линк оставено тука од форумот.
Еве што вика Бирд за Албанците и за V13, за крај на дискусијава... (помеѓу мене и тебе)
I did something today that I rarely have done: I plunked down $32 bucks for the new Battaglia paper. It was worth it.
There are 235 new haplotypes in this study. The remaining haplos (a total of 1206) are derived from previous studies (Rootsi 2004, Semino 2004, Marjanovic 2005.) What is most interesting to me is that all of their conclusions, designed to support the cultural diffusion model, are based on the EE mutation rate from ZUF 2004 (.00069) or put another way, an EE rate of 3.6, which would appear to be at least highly questionable if not incorrect outright. If a lower rate is used (say, 2.4) it may drop the entire data set in line with the early Neolithic. I plan to do some ASD calcs later today.
Dienekes will not be pleased; the variance for V13 peaks in Split, Croatia! (I observed the same thing some time ago from the haplotypes reported in Forensic Science International). The other variance peak is around Konya, Turkey. (Chatal-Hoyuk). The obvious implication is that there is nothing particularly "Greek" about V13 or J2b2-M241 (the Balkan subclade of J2-M12). V13 is oldest along the Adriatic among the Albanians. However, it is even older in Apulia and Sicily. (!)
Here is an interesting quote:
"The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described virtually only in Northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."
I think that it can be reasonably argued that the Albanians are descended from the indigenous population of V13's found in the Balkans, rather than the Greek population. Considering the location along the Adriatic that represents the variance peak (Split), I think that we must call them "Illyrian."
The other interesting twist on all of this new info is that the authors are attempting to support the "cultural diffusion" model at the expense of demic diffusion with regard to the Balkan peninsula. Considering that their entire argument hinges on the use of the 3.6 EE rate, I am not so sure that they have been successful with the attempt. Then, after all of the effort to promote the CD model over DD, they attribute the spread of Cardial Ware (Impressed Ware) to V13, which is of course a demic diffusion based model!
Once again, Cruciani is excluded from the discussion except for when absolutely necessary, even though they refer to his haplotype data from time to time. Weird.
http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=999.0
И...
See the attached Word file for the frequency and variance maps for V13 and J2b2-M241 from this study. The variance peaks in Split Croatia for V13 and has a lesser peak around Konya, Turkey. The actual calculated age (based on variance) in Konya was 9.4 kya (+/-2.9) compared with 9.2 kya (+/-4.3). There is no meaningful difference in these two calculations. The variance for J2b2 (which Cruciani has identified as V13's brother clade within the population of the Balkans) peaks at Konya also, at 10.1 kya (+/-3.4). This would appear to be a single population with two clades making up the male portion. Catal-Hoyuk is not far from Konya. It's my opinion that they have found the origin of V13/M241 (Catal Hoyuk region) but don't like the resulting conclusion. I doubt seriously that V13 and J2b2 arose simultaneously and separately in two regions of the near east at exactly the same time. Ergo, they came from the location where both variances peaked: near Konya, Turkey.
Combining the King et al and Battaglia et al papers, a highly speculative sequence of settlement can be developed:
1. Catal-Hoyuk (10.1-10.4 kya) - 8400-8100 B.C. - the Neolithic revolution is founded
within a few centuries, overpopulation occurs
2. People spread out to several other locations: Lerna/Franchthi, Split, Corfu, Sicily, Apulia. (Initial Neolithic, 9-10 kya)
(Sicily turns out to be quite old in both clades; older than Greece BTW, about 10.0 kya for M241. I have calculated a similar ASD age for V13 in Sicily. )
3. Other settlements appears: Nea Nikomedeia, Maliq, Starcevo, etc. (8.6 kya) - this is the main wave of the Early Neolithic in the Balkans
4. The proto-Greeks finally make the scene in Sesklo-Dimini (about 4.3 kya) - but they may have migrated there from Lerna, following the House of Tiles destruction (about the same time)?
The Albanians appear to emerge as the oldest population in the Balkans outside of Lerna, with the exception of Split, Croatia, which is almost as far south as Montenegro anyway. The variance table shows clearly that V13 spread from west to east and from north to south in the western Balkans. Given the associations, I am of the opinion that the Albanian V13 in the Vardar-Morava corridor is derived from the Illyrian population.
Since Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia were ignored completely in this study, I can't say whether those folks (clearly within Thracian and Dacian regions) are older, younger or the same age as the Illyrian V13/M241 populations. Mocsy held that the population west of the Vardar-Morava valleys were Illyrian and east of the same valley were Thracian. Perhaps he was exactly correct.
I think that I may have found a way to test my Roman hypothesis, however. Back to the spreadsheets!
Steve
http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=999.15
И сега пак на крај ќе поставам прашање, зошто V13 го врзува директно со Албанците?
Да не баратам по генетските форуми, па да постирам уште вакви и слични податоци. Ова ми е најблиску при рака.
П.С. Те молам кажими, што јас контрирам? За да знам од какви обвинувања ќе се бранам и да се бранам?
