Археолошка реконструкција на етногенезата на Словените

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Славјански... треба ли да повторувам и колку пати за да ви стане јасна намената на темава?

Ако имаш научни извори, со име и презиме, кои ќе можат или неможат да констатираат тоа што е предмет на дискусија - миграцијата и етногенезата на Словените, тогаш повели постирај.

Јас ти ја давам суштината на етногенезата на Словените а ти треба текстот целосно да го прочиташ, затоа што во истиот го има и изворот и има термини кои се веродостојни и прифатени.
 
Не, јас ја знам суштината, дискутирано е милион пати на веќе постоечките теми за Словените.

Ти реков на што сакам да се насочиме, на евидентирани докази од областа на сите потребни науки за да се докаже тоа што се тврди.

Русите можеле да запишат било што, но потребна е компатибилност со останатите науки кои ќе го потврдат тоа што било запишано.

Затоа без прикаски и муабети, давајте извори и докази.
 
Ајде уште еднаш потврдена констатација.

Рурик, основачот на Русија по мајка Умилои од племето Бодричи, Обордити, Полабјански Словени,Древни или Македонјани, тоа се све нивни имиња, истите тие ја формираат и државата Вендија, Венедија зависи кој како ја изговара.
Вендите, Венетите ги имаш и во Цариград за времето на “Византија“ , тие се доминантно населени.

Русите до тука ја знаат историјата, до Рурик, после тоа во темница се како и грото од Словените кои после падот на комунизмот почнаа да копаат подлабоко во историјата.
 
Кажи ми треба сам да барам референци или ќе бидеш љубезен да си ги потврдиш тврдењата?

A history of Eastern Europe crisis and change 2nd edition (2007)
Robert Bideleux and Ian Jeffries

The following are excerpts from pages 137-39 of the book noted.




In truth all that can be stated with any certainty is that by the tenth century AD a people or peoples widely identified as a ‘slavic’ linguistic-cultural group and/or a biological-racial group made up a majority of the inhabitants of East Central Europe....

Paul Barford (2001, 2005) and Florin Curta (2001, 2005, 2006) have demonstrated that there is very little (if any) reliable information concerning the Slavic people(s) and their place(s) of origin prior to the seventh century AD.
Data generated by dendrochronology (the use of tree rings for dating past events) indicate that in East Central Europe the so-called Slav culture...cannot be dated earlier than 700AD (Curta 2005: 9).
Paul Barford, a leading British specialist on Polish archaeology, maintains that ‘there is little evidence of a Slavic presence in Polabia (modern-day East Germany) or central and northwestern Poland before the end of the seventh or the early eighth century. Indeed, over most of the area, there are only sparse settlement...before the late 600s (Barford 2005; 62). There is still longstanding and still far from resolved disagreements as to when and how the Slavic ancestors of the Poles, the Czechs and the Slovaks ‘emerged’: and whether they first appeared in their current ‘homelands’ at some point during the sixth or seventh century AD; how they originated; and if they ‘migrated’ or ‘arrived’ from somewhere else, whence they came. Nor is there any consensus concerning the nature and timing of the processes by which the Slavic people(s) separated or coalesced into Western, Eastern and southern Slav linguistic and ethnic groupings.

It seems highly unlikely that there were large ethnically or linguistically identifiable Slavic populations in East Central Europe prior to the sixth century AD. Before that time, significantly, the Byzantine (East Roman) Empire was ‘totally oblivious to the existence of a barbaric people called the Slavs on their northern border.
The terms (designating Slavic peoples) seem to have been coined or adopted by East Roman writers as descriptions of a certain group of barbarians only in the 550s (Barford 2001: 36).

Furthermore, it no longer seems plausible that the forebears of the Western Slavs ‘migrated’ to East Central Europe from elsewhere. There is insufficient evidence to back up older hypothesis suggesting a large scale displacement from what is now Ukraine and/or Belarus into East Central Europe (Barford 2001; 16, 45-6; Curta 2001: 336-7; 2006: 56). The inhabitants of ‘the vast spaces of the Russian plain’ during the third to seveth centuries AD, whose existence and characteristics were not recorded in written documents, ‘had no common name, whether it was “Slavs” or anything else (Dolukhanov 1996: ix-x), and they ‘cannot be ascribed to any ethnic group (Curta 2001: 13).

Furthermore, it is implausible to suppose that large-scale Slavic population pools and movements of this sort could have gone completely unnoticed by contemporary neighbouring peoples and states.
Yet the expansion of the Slavic peoples to become the most numerous ethno-cultural group(s) in East Central Europe, the Balkans and Russia by the ninth century AD was also too rapid to be explicable as a natural demographic explosion (Barford 2001: 16; Urbanczyk 2005; 142).

The rate of reproduction involved to fill the new territories with descendants of a small original population, no matter how the figures are calculated, is biologically impossible’ (Barford 2001: 46).

Curta and Barford have cogently argued that it is simply not known how any of the Slav peoples (not just the Western Slavs) came into existence, although this has not stopped them and others from continuing the long tradition of putting forward ingenious and interesting conjectures and hypotheses on the endlessly fascinating mystery.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1Z9ItAtbJ5AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=paul+barford#PPP1,M1




Барам доброволец за превод на овој текст?!

П.С. Има награда :)
 
Кратки црти, се чудат од каде се појавиле словените од никаде , како Византија неможе да примети маса на дива хорда северно од нејзината граница , како е биолошки невозможно од мал почетен простор да се насели територија на цела Источна Европа и дека везе немаат како било кој од словенските племиња воопшто настанале.

Ме мрзи да го преведувам сеа , утре средено ќе биде :)
 
Jas :vozbud:

Eve

Vo vistinata se toa sto moze da bide kazano so sigurnost e deka do Desettiot vek AD grupa lugje ili mnogu lugje bea identifikuvani kako ''Slovenska'' jazicno-kulturna grupa ili/i bioloska-rasna grupa koi bea mnozinstvo na naselenieto vo Istocno Centralna Evropa...
Paul Barford (2001, 2005) i Florin Curta (2001, 2005, 2006) pokazaa deka ima mnogu malku (ako voopsto ima) verodostojni informacii vo vrska so Slovenite i nivnata tatkovina t.e. nivnoto rodno mesto pred sedmiot vek AD.
Podatocite generirani od dendrohronologija (е високопроцентен метод за датирање кој во одредени случаи обезбедува и апсолутно и релативно датирање) pokazuva deka vo Istocno Centralna Evropa 'takanarecenata Slovenska kultura... nemoze da bide datirana porano od 700AD (Curta 2005: 9).
 
Paul Barford, poznat Britanski specijalist za Polska arheologija go zavzema svojot stav 'deka ima mnogu malku dokazi za Slovensko pristustvo vo Polabija (deneshna Istocna Germanija) i centralna i Severozapadna Polska pred krajot na sedmiot i raniot osmi vek. Istotaka, okolu ovaa teritorija ima mnogu malo pristustvo na lugje...pred kasnite 600 godini (Barford 2005; 62).
Ima dolgovremenski i seuste daleku od reseni nesoglasuvanja okolu toa kade i kako Slovenskite predci na Poljacite, Chesite i Slovacite ''se pojavija'' i dali tie se pojavija prvo vo nivnite momentalni 'tatkovini' vo nekoe vreme okolu sestiot i sedmiot vek AD, kako tie nastanaa; i ako tie ''migriraa'' ili ''dojdoa'' od nekoe drugo mesto, od kade tie dojdoa. Nema nitu konsenzus za prirodnite i vremenski procesi koga Slovenite se razdelija ili se soedinija na Zapadni, Istocni i Juzno Slovenski lingvisticni i etnicki grupi/grupacii.
Izgleda mnogu verojatno deka imalo golemi etnicki i ligvisticni identifikuvani Slovenski populacii vo Istocno Centralna Evropa pred sestiot vek AD. Pred toa, vazno, Vizaniskoto Carstvo bese ''totalno vo zaborav za postoenjeto na barbari nareceni Sloveni na nivnata Severna granica.
Terminot (sto oznacuva Sloveni) izgleda deka bil falshiv i prisvoen od Istocnite Rimski pisateli za opis na odredena grupa barbari samo vo 550tite (Barford 2001: 36).
Ponatamu, veke dolgo ne izgleda verodostojno deka predcite na Zapadnite Sloveni 'migrirale'' do Istocno Centralna Evropa od nekade na drugo mesto. Ima nedovolna evidencija da poddrzi postari hipotezi koi sugestiraat na golemo nivo na zamenuvanje (dislokacija) od toa sto e sega Ukraina i/ili Belorusija vo Istocno Centralna Evropa (Barford 2001; 16, 45-6; Curta 2001: 336-7; 2006: 56). Naselenite na ''golemite prostranstva od Ruskite ramnini'' vo tekot na tretiot do sedmiot vek AD, koe postoenje i karakteristiki ne bea napisani vo pisanite dokumenti, 'nemaa ime, dali toa bile ''Sloveni'' ili nekoi drugi (Dolukhanov 1996: ix-x), i tie ''nemoze da bidat prepisani na nekoja etnicka grupa (Curta 2001: 13).
Ponatamu, neverojano e da se pretpostavuva deka golem broj na Slovenska populacija i dvizenja od ovoj vid bi bile kompletno nezabalezani od sovremenite sosedni lugje i drzavi.
Seuste, ekspanzijata na Slovenite za da bidat najbrojnata etno-kulturna grupa/grupi vo Istocno Centralna Evropa, Balkanot i Rusija do devettiot vek AD bese isto tolku rapidno za da bide objasnato kako prirodna demografska eksplozija (Barford 2001: 16; Urbanczyk 2005; 142).
''Stapkata na reprodukcija involvirana za da gi napolni novite teritorii so potomokot na malata originalna populacija, ne vazno kako figurite se smetani, e bioloski nevozmozno (Barford 2001: 46).
Curta i Barford argumentiraa deka e ednostavno nepoznato kako sekoja od Slovenskite grupi (ne samo Zapadnite Sloveni) pocnale da postojat, iako ova ne gi stopirase niv i drugite od prodolzuvanje na dolgata tradicija na stavanje interesni pretpostavki i hipotezi na krajnata fascinirana misterija.
 
А зошто не е можно тука на Балканот да живееле истите народи и денес што живеат(значи јужни Словени) а тие Словени кои навлегувале во источната римска империја - Византија во 6-ти век да биле другите така наречени словенофони народи односно северните Словени (во денешен смисол)?
 
Mozebi e mozno...moe licno mislenje e deka pratatkovinata na Slovenite e pokraj Dunav,t.e. Panonskata nizina (deneshna Vojvodina),tie togas voopsto ne bile poznati kako ''Sloveni'' no imale drugi iminja.
 
Mozebi e mozno...moe licno mislenje e deka pratatkovinata na Slovenite e pokraj Dunav,t.e. Panonskata nizina (deneshna Vojvodina),tie togas voopsto ne bile poznati kako ''Sloveni'' no imale drugi iminja.
Да, може и не се изразив баш најдобро. И тие на Балканот зборувале на сличен јазик но не биле нарекувани Словени, а тие што се спомнуваат во различни средновековни извори како Словени се всушност северните словени односно тие од Украина што му доаѓа на североисток всушност.
 
А зошто не е можно тука на Балканот да живееле истите народи и денес што живеат(значи јужни Словени) а тие Словени кои навлегувале во источната римска империја - Византија во 6-ти век да биле другите така наречени словенофони народи односно северните Словени (во денешен смисол)?


Па така и било,делумно, затоа се обидувам да го поткрепам тоа тврдење со научни референци бидејќи многумина не сакаат тоа да го видат и ме обвинуваат мене и сите оние што мислиме исто дека сме “националисти“ дека сме создавале “нова“ историја и сл. глупости во недостиг на аргументи.

Подоцна ќе ги избројам сите институти и стручњаци на кои слободно можеме да се повикаме, па да видиме кој ќе биде изговорот потоа.

Затоа сакам и вие да се потрудите да најдете такви референци кои ќе им помогнат и на останатите неубедени и заблудени членови да разберат дека историјата која им била институционално сервирана сокрила или испуштила да ја изнесе вистината.
За време на комунизмот оваа пансловенска идеологија беше форсирана од страна на Русија за да ги оправда своите “ингеренции“ како “мајка на сите словени“ во мешањето на Балканот и останатите источно-европски земји, а претходно беше злоупотребена и од Германците - нацисти за да посегнуваат по земјите на “варварите“ кои наводно претходно биле нивни.

Ајде без сосила да ве терам, да се концентрираме повеќе на ваквите научни академски извори кои го имаат сиот кредибилитет во својата област, а тоа се областите на археологијата, антрополигијата, етнологијата, лингвистиката и сл.
 
Jas pronajdov nesto: :vozbud:

Slavs:

Origins
Perhaps for no other of the major peoples of Europe has the process of identifying how and when they emerged as a distinct ethnicity been more shrouded in uncertainty and controversy than for the Slavs. Slavic identity is importantly based on linguistic ties; the first Slavs emerged in part as a communication community all speaking the same language, a fact stressed by one of the models for the meaning of the Slavs' name, that it derived from the word slovo, meaning "word" or "speech"—that is, that the Slovani, in contrast to their neighbors, the Germanics, whom they called Nemcy (the dumb, mute), were the people of the word or of commonly intelligible speech. (Another theory maintains that Slavic is derived from Slava for honor or glory.) But a common language is not enough to establish a common ethnic identity, especially in the ancient world in which the Slavs emerged. It was common for ancient peoples, especially those living in border regions with many ethnicities, to speak a number of tongues. In the Western Roman Empire most people spoke Latin in addition to their native tongue. Slavs who migrated into the Balkans during the sixth century and later probably spoke Greek as well as Slavic, and possibly the language of the Avars. Other elements than language are needed to knit a group together in an ethnic entity.
Modern concepts of what is meant by an "ethnic group" have evolved as a result of archaeological and ethnographic study. The latter widened the term beyond the meaning it was given early in the 20th century as being based on types or assemblages of archaeological material, conceived of as "cultures." The concept of "communication communities" enlarged but did not replace the archaeological culture model, because material culture is, of course, another kind of communication between people and a potent means of self-identification, of belonging to a specific group. Additional components of what goes to create an ethnic group in current thinking include a collective name, a common myth of descent, a shared history, an association with a specific territory, and a sense of solidarity. Among tribal societies such as that of the Slavs the sense of solidarity and the myth of common descent were often provided by the tribal leaders and their dynasties, who in a sense formed the core family or clan linked (more in a mythic than an actual genealogical sense) to all the other clans in the tribe. The thrust of current thinking about ethnicity is that it is created rather than inborn, more a cultural construct than something inherited or "in the blood."
It is obvious that none of these components can be seen directly in the archaeological record, but only, very tentatively, inferred. The realities behind what are used as "markers" for given ethnic groups—such as Early Slavic pottery or Lombard fibulae—were probably far more complex and are very uncertainly known. A piece of broken pottery tells us, by itself, absolutely nothing about its user's language, for example. It has to be said that many scholars of the early Slavs (especially Polish and Ukrainian ones) have seriously overinterpreted the available evidence and even indulged in wishful thinking on occasion.
This is certainly the case for claims that the origins of the Slavs can be seen in cultures of the distant past, for example, the so-called Pit Grave or Kurgan culture of the fifth millennium BCE. Questionable also is the claim that by about 2,000 BCE the Slavs occupied the whole basin of the Vistula and most of the Oder, in addition to their eastern settlements between the Pripet Marshes and the Black Sea. Beyond the fact that the uncertainties noted in postulating the existence of an ethnic group from material remains alone are multiplied many times over when studying people so far distant in the past, it is nearly certain that the common ancestor of modern Slavic languages, which constitute such an important part of the Slavic identity, emerged thousands of years later, in the middle of the first millennium CE. This proto-Slavic may well have emerged from precursors bearing a resemblance to modern Slavic languages, but these too must have been of relatively recent date and can have had only the most distant of relations to languages spoken by people several millennia earlier, according to the rate of language change over time known to linguists. Since the makers of the Pit Grave culture must have spoken a language (or languages) with only the remotest resemblance to proto-Slavic, it is hard to see that they or any other people of their time can be claimed as being "Slavs." (It is not even certain that they spoke an Indo-European language.)
Such misconceptions are fueled by the assumption that people today assume and think of their own ethnicity in the same way peoples in the distant past did. Citizens of modern nation-states are assigned their ethnicity from birth and are "socialized" to think of themselves as a nationality. The process of group identification in tribal societies was far different and more fluid, particularly in the case of the mobile warrior societies that dominated central and eastern Europe after the Neolithic Age. Warriors with their families could choose to belong to a tribe or decide to leave it for another—a decision often based on the success of a tribe or group of tribes in waging war and obtaining plunder, and in providing security for lands and herds. In the tumultuous period when the historically known Slavs first appeared tribes had become less important than large multiethnic confederacies open to any warrior bands who wished to join them. Furthermore central and eastern Europe, on the edge of the great central steppe lands crossed for ages by tribes of mobile warriors and nomads from the time of the Pit Grave culture and before, were a meeting place of peoples from all over a vast region. For this reason the idea that groups there, living in periods some 4,000 years apart from one another, had any beyond the faintest of links is highly improbable.
Part of the problem in identifying the first Slavs lies in the great simplicity of their material remains. Their pottery especially is so plain and simple in shape that it provides few easily read distinguishing characteristics. The earliest claimed Slavic pottery, called the Korchak type, is actually quite similar to pottery made earlier over a wide region of central and eastern Europe, in places where there is no reason to believe Slavs lived at the time. This has made finding an original homeland of the Slavs an extremely difficult and contentious issue. Tracking the emergence and development of Slavic culture by using pottery has by necessity been an esoteric pursuit carried out by specialists. And here nationalist agendas, endemic among Slavs of different countries for centuries because of their long and troubled histories, can find a foothold. For it is all too easy for claimed affinities between different pottery assemblages found in different areas to be "in the eye of the beholder"—a scholar with the agenda to claim his country as the original homeland of the Slavs, for example, may see his pottery assemblage as more closely related to Korchak pottery than that from another country. Problems of dating also have plagued archaeological studies of Slavic material.
The archaeological remains of the earliest Slavs have been identified by excavating areas where the earliest of written sources place them—along the Danube in the sixth century CE and somewhat later in the Balkans. There is linguistic evidence that early Slavs may have lived in Moravia (modern Slovakia) and Bohemia (the modern Czech Republic), Ukraine, and other areas, and these places have been excavated as well. The material found in all of these regions shows enough similarity to assume, tentatively, that the Slavs at this time had "crystallized" into a group with a consciously shared ethnicity based on language, a common material culture, and possibly a shared ideology and religion. Before this period the existence of a distinctively Slavic ethnic group becomes a matter of increasingly tentative speculation.
The crystallization of Slavic identity may have taken place in the context of the conquest of the Goths, a German-led multiethnic confederacy north of the Lower Danube and the Black Sea, and by the Huns, a Turkic steppe people, in the fifth century. It is thought that part of the process of forging a Slavic identity involved the Huns. The latter's disruption of the previous Gothic power structure may have opened opportunities for the first Slavs; some among them very probably joined the Hunnic forces, learning from them how to fight on horseback and thus becoming formidable and mobile warriors. Slavs may first have entered the Middle Danube region to the west, where they later lived, as part of the Hunnic hordes. The Huns' example may have served the Slavs well as they began in the sixth century to spread quickly over a wide area of eastern and central Europe into most of the countries where Slavic peoples live today.
This expansion was probably not a wholesale migration, because there is little evidence of depopulation in the areas inhabited by the earliest Slavs, nor of a reason why large groups would travel to lands far distant to settle. More likely, small bands of young Slavic warriors made such journeys into lands formerly held by Germanic elites, such as the Vandals and Lombards, who had departed to take advantage of the crumbling of Roman power in the south and west. These Slavic warriors may have been followed by small farming groups who were taking advantage of lands vacated by migrating Germanics and others.


P. M. Barford. The Early Slavs: Culture and Society in Early Medieval Eastern Europe (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press, 2001).
Terence C. Carlton. Introduction to the Phonological History of the Slavic Language (Bloomington, Ind.: Slavica, 1991).
Francis Conte. The Slavs (Boulder, Colo.: East European Monographs, 1995).
Florin Curta. The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, ca. 500–700 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2001).
Pavel M. Dolukhanov. The Early Slavs: Eastern Europe from the Initial Settlement to the Kievan Rus (New York: Longman, 1996).
Francis Dvornik. The Slavs in European History and Civilization (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1962).
Boris Gasparov. Christianity and the Eastern Slavs (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1993).
Martin Gojda. The Ancient Slavs: Settlement and Society: The Rhind Lectures 1989–90 (Edinburgh, UK: Edinburgh University Press, 1990).
Zbigniew Golab. The Origins of the Slavs: A Linguist's View (Bloomington, Ind.: Slavica, 1992).
Dimitri Obolensky. Byzantium and the Slavs (Crestwood, N.Y.: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1994).
Roger Portal. The Slavs: A Cultural and Historical Survey of the Slavonic Peoples (New York: HarperCollins, 1969).
Alexander M. Schenkerl The Dawn of Slavic: An Introduction to Slavic Philology (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1996).
Zdenek Vána. The World of the Ancient Slavs (Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1983).
 
Браво Крис, добра работа.

Кога ќе имаме време ќе ги преведеме уште сите овие текстови за да бидат што полесни за разбирање за сите Македонци.

Поздрав
 
Ме интересира, коа веќе вака сакал модераторот... Дали се пронајдени некаде артефакти од 7 век, т.е. 600 до 11 век, 1000 година.

Би сакал да видам. Било какви. Од Тесалија, па дури до Косово, т.е. Дарданија.
 
Браво Крис, добра работа.

Кога ќе имаме време ќе ги преведеме уште сите овие текстови за да бидат што полесни за разбирање за сите Македонци.

Поздрав

Nema problem Bratot.

Bi preporacal da go vidite i ovoj vebsajt vo vrska so tezite deka denesnite Sloveni se ostatocite od drevnata civilizacija od Tripolskata kultura.

http://www.trypillia.com/

Vikentiy Khvoika continued his excavations in 1899-1900 near the villages of Romashky and Cherniakhiv in the Kyiv region. There he discovered burial grounds from the 3rd-4th centuries, which belonged to another distinct and previously unknown archeological culture. This society existed during Roman times, later was named the Cherniakhiv culture.
During the same time period, his excavations of burial grounds near the village of Zarubyntsi brought about a discovery of yet another culture, which received the name - Zarubynetska. This culture is considered now to be an early Slavic culture.

Initially, scientists regarded the Trypillian culture to be part of the autochthonous culture of ancient Aryans or Slavs, dating back to the 4th-3rd millennium BC. Other scientists maintain that Trypillia is a distinct culture. This debate has continued into present with the understanding that Aryans, Slavs and Trypillians may have common roots or are closely connected.

Jas bi go nametnal prasanjeto okolu Tripolijcite deka nivno glavno zanimanje bila agrokulturata,i zemjodelieto...taka da mislam deka treba da se zemat site tezi vo predvid.

Drugo,bas pred nekoe vreme citav deka Lusatskata kultura bila polu Ilirska a polu Slovenska.Prema taa teorija,Ilirite se oddelile od Slovenite i se naselile vo Avstrija i vo Ungarija,a Slovenite ostanale od drugata strana na Karpatite.

Kako sto pisi vo prethodniot tekst,najran voopsto otkrien ostatok od Sloveni e eventualno od Tripolskata kultura,i onie ostatoci koi se pronajdeni na Dunav,koi bile vek i pol postari nego tie vo Ukraina. (da dodadam deka totalno bi se soglasil so Curta,koj veli deka tatkovinata na Slovenite e na Dunav,a ne vo mocurishtata vo Ukraina,i deka Vizantiskata Imperija go izmislila terminot Sloven)
 
Ме интересира, коа веќе вака сакал модераторот... Дали се пронајдени некаде артефакти од 7 век, т.е. 600 до 11 век, 1000 година.

Би сакал да видам. Било какви. Од Тесалија, па дури до Косово, т.е. Дарданија.


Артефакти кои би се однесувале на .. што?
 

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