Евангелието по Јуда

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Чорбаџи напиша:
Ова историски не е точно. 4 евангелија се единствените евангелија од првиот век. Тек подоцна, кога другите виделе дека можат што се вели денес да „продадат” книга ако и турат наслов „евангелие” се пишувани другите тн евангелија, а уште боље идела продажбата ако и се тури псевдоним од некој од веќе познатите Христови ученици (јуда, тома, бла бла бла)... Значи нема никаков заговор, мистика или што ти јас знам што околу „одбирањето” на 4-те евангелија, туку дури зачудувачки, интерес да се сочува најнаучната и најточната историски гледано верзија за настаните на животот на Исус.
Кликни за повеќе...
Ајде, седенте си и велети си: Ја тебе Сердаре, ти мене Војводо!!

Докажи дека не е вистина и дека имало само 4!!
Или толку знаел попот кој те крштевал со ладна вода на студена пондила???

За да не почнеме лична кавга, тука ќе престанам, но, имај на ум, за разлика од тебе и сличните како тебе, некој друг, имено јас, говори со факти, со докази, особено ако за нешто сум стучен, како што е философија на религија.

И, знај, како што реков, така било на Никејскиот собор, а ако па ептен не веруваш, оди читни, ќе поднаучиш нешто.

П.С. Единствено, војводо!!

Види пријателе, последниот пост ти е глупост, ама ајде, да ти прогледаме низ прсти, оти, како вели верата во која веруваш:
Блажени се простите по дух....оти нивно е царството небесно - Blessed are the meek..........for they shall inherit the heavenly kingdom!
 
Ја да читнам? си читам секој ден, ама ако веќе почнавме со чаламџиски маалски муабети, би ти предложил ти нешто да читнеш...:baeh: И би се кладел дека сум постручен од тебе и дека зборувам со повеќе факти и докази... Ај сеа? :baeh:

Ја никаде не спомнав дека имало само 4 во првиот век. Туку дека досега науката, историјата, археологијата, пронашла и докажала дека само тие 4 ги имаме. А сите овие други, кодови на да винчи манипулации, се знае и за нив, бе не е науката гола вода... Има методи, проучувања, значи се знае од кога потекнале и тие, и кој ги напишал, не бидете толку наивни...

А за Никеа, значи 4 век, јасно е дека постоеле веќе и овие 4 од првиот век, и многу други од следните векови... и тие си направиле што направиле, колку догматски, толку и историски и научно. Да не забораваме, тие немале причина од чисто догматски причини да го исфрлат некое евангелие, бидејќи токму тогаш и се создавала догмата. Значи немало некоја претходна догма која би ги ограничила...
 
ТЕБЕ ПОКРАЈ ЧОРБАЏИ УБАВО ЌЕ ТИ ДОЈДЕ И вОЈВОДО (ЗНАЕШ НА КОЈ ВОЈВОДА МИСЛАМ И ЗОШТО)!

Дете, читни, не кенкај по форуми, едно е да полемизираш со недоучени, друго е со научници, јасно.

Се испилија пилците им се навртеа на кокошките, ама дојде петелот, ги колвна по тимбата и пискајќи се скрија под пердуви на мајка им.

Јас убаво ти реков, евангелијата ги има многу, по соборот многу се прогласени за ерес и уништени, што останало читаво, останало благодарение на некој поширок човек кој решил да ги сокрие, за да еден ден, дури и таквите како тебе, слепци при очи, прогледаат.

А бидејќи никој неме плаќа ТЕБе да ти држам лекции по историја на философија, историја на религија и философија на религија, ти советувам да седнеш и научиш.

Исус-Богочовекот, станува таков дури по Никеја, некако, малкуцка подоцна од воскресението??? Чудно нели, како им требало годиње и годиње за да разберат нешто што тебе ти е очигледно??

Некако не ти влага у гла дека баш шпред Никеја рисјалнството има проблем да се избори за она место под сонцето кое го имало дотогаш баш поради големиот број на различни сфаќања на Исусовите учења, т.е различни интерпретации (читај евангелија) кои имале различни следбеници и постоела реална можност да се расцепка и понатаму и на крај да избледи и исчезне.

За жал, успеале да се договорат во Никеја!
 
Абе види, тебе за на чалам на маалска клупа, те бива, тоа може капа да ти се симне... Али за ука, си уште труба...

И ти мене можеш само да ми платиш јас да ти држам лекции, сине... Тоа да запамтиш... Оти те гледам си се распиштољил ко да си Џон Вејн код Океј Корала...

Значи, по 100ти пат за сите малоумни, сите епилептичари и сите маалски филозофи на религија... Едно е Кодот на Да Винчи да ти каже, имало 100 евангелија во првиот век, ама биле уништени... А друго е да ти каже археологијата, историјата и науката...

Мене ми е јасно дека вие на Кодот сте растени, и тука сте многу јаки... Али чим треба некој артефакт, папирус, музејски експонат, тука сте труба...
 
Чорбаџи напиша:
Абе види, тебе за на чалам на маалска клупа, те бива, тоа може капа да ти се симне... Али за ука, си уште труба...

И ти мене можеш само да ми платиш јас да ти држам лекции, сине... Тоа да запамтиш... Оти те гледам си се распиштољил ко да си Џон Вејн код Океј Корала...

Значи, по 100ти пат за сите малоумни, сите епилептичари и сите маалски филозофи на религија... Едно е Кодот на Да Винчи да ти каже, имало 100 евангелија во првиот век, ама биле уништени... А друго е да ти каже археологијата, историјата и науката...

Мене ми е јасно дека вие на Кодот сте растени, и тука сте многу јаки... Али чим треба некој артефакт, папирус, музејски експонат, тука сте труба...
Кликни за повеќе...

Na Kodot rasteni?!!! Molim te, opraj se, ziti sve. Kodot e literature&fiction i toa ni e poznato. Ova sto i Garfield go kazuva i ja go imam procitano od luge sto se PROFESORI PO RELIGIJA vo SAD.
 
Ќелеш, не ме нервирај, Кодот е сосема обична фикција, како што твојата замисла за самиот себе дека знае нешто е фикција, а залуденоста твоја по опиумот наречен религија е факт, факт кој не ти дозволува да отвориш очи.

Маалски философи има еден куп, а учени лица, особено на оваа тематика на форумов се малку, а ти, не си еден од нив.

The Council of Nicea

When Constantine defeated Emperor Licinius in 323 AD he ended the persecutions against the Christian church. Shortly afterwards Christians faced a trouble from within: the Arian controversy began and threatened to divide the church. The problem began in Alexandria, it started as a debate between the bishop Alexander and the presbyter (pastor, or priest) Arius. Arius proposed that if the Father begat the Son, the latter must have had a beginning, that there was a time when he was not, and that his substance was from nothing like the rest of creation. The Council of Nicea, a gathering similar to the one described in Acts 15:4-22, condemned the beliefs of Arius and wrote the first version of the now famous creed proclaiming that the Son was "one in being with the Father" by use of the Greek word "homoousius."
 
Се што сакав да кажам е дека вашата „научност” е на ниво на кодот... кратко и јасно...

Абе маче, што се нервираш? Оти имало и пофраери од маало? Па мислиш дека ти си најучен овде? Абе ти имаш уште ука ука ука да тераш бе дете...

И што ми постираш глупости за Соборот во Никеја... по википедија ли шеташ нешто да научиш, о ти семудар филозофе? Нели темата беше евангелијата од првиот век, кои ти многу храбро ми тврдеше ги имало катаљон...

Еве тука баш ти се затвора тоа муцката, и што се вика, и Џон Вејн мора да го врати пиштолот у гаќи...

Кое е едно, именувај ми, евангелие од првиот век, неканонско... Каде се чува? Во кој музеј? Каде е пронајден папирусот? ЗНачи без кодови и чалам, тука ќе си ставиш тапа на устата, или во овој случај, завој на рацете...:toe:
 
Тhis council opened on 19 June in the presence of the emperor, but it is uncertain who presided over the sessions. In the extant lists of bishops present, Ossius of Cordova, and the presbyters Vitus and Vincentius are listed before the other names, but it is more likely that Eustathius of Antioch or Alexander of Alexandria presided. (see Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, ed. Norman P. Tanner S.J.) The bold text in the profession of faith of the 318 fathers constitutes, according to Tanner "The additions made by the council to an underlying form of the creed", and that the underlying creed was most likely "derived from the baptismal formula of Caesarea put forward by the bishop of that city Eusebius" or that it "developed from an original form which existed in Jerusalem or at any rate Palestine". "A direct descent from the creed of Eusebius of Caesarea is manifestly out of the question." Vol 1, p2)
The figure of 318 given in the heading below is from Hilary of Poitier and is the traditional one. Other numbers are Eusebius 250, Eustathius of Antioch 270., Athanasius about 300, Gelasius of Cyzicus at more than 300.

  1. We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia] of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten [Gr. gennethenta, Lat. natum] not made [Gr. poethenta, Lat. factum], CONSUBSTANTIAL [Gr. homoousion, Lat. unius substantiae (quod Graeci dicunt homousion)] with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those in earth; for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit.
  2. And those who say
    1. "there once was when he was not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and that
    2. he came to be from
      • things that were not, or
      • from another hypostasis [Gr. hypostaseos] or substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia],
      affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.
 
CANONS

  1. If anyone in sickness has undergone surgery at the hands of physicians or has been castrated by barbarians, let him remain among the clergy. But if anyone in good health has castrated himself, if he is enrolled among the clergy he should be suspended, and in future no such man should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this refers to those who are responsible for the condition and presume to castrate themselves, so too if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians or by their masters, but have been found worthy, the canon admits such men to the clergy.
  2. Since, either through necessity or through the importunate demands of certain individuals, there have been many breaches of the church's canon, with the result that men who have recently come from a pagan life to the faith after a short catechumenate have been admitted at once to the spiritual washing, and at the same time as their baptism have been promoted to the episcopate or the presbyterate, it is agreed that it would be well for nothing of the kind to occur in the future. For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism, for the apostle's words are clear: "Not a recent convert, or he may be puffed up and fall into the condemnation and the snare of the devil". But if with the passage of time some sin of sensuality is discovered with regard to the person and he is convicted by two or three witnesses, such a one will be suspended from the clergy. If anyone contravenes these regulations, he will be liable to forfeit his clerical status for acting in defiance of this great synod.
  3. This great synod absolutely forbids a bishop, presbyter, deacon or any of the clergy to keep a woman who has been brought in to live with him, with the exception of course of his mother or sister or aunt, or of any person who is above suspicion.
  4. It is by all means desirable that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops of the province. But if this is difficult because of some pressing necessity or the length of the journey involved, let at least three come together and perform the ordination, but only after the absent bishops have taken part in the vote and given their written consent. But in each province the right of confirming the proceedings belongs to the metropolitan bishop.
  5. Concerning those, whether of the clergy or the laity, who have been excommunicated, the sentence is to be respected by the bishops of each province according to the canon which forbids those expelled by some to be admitted by others. But let an inquiry be held to ascertain whether anyone has been expelled from the community because of pettiness or quarrelsomeness or any such ill nature on the part of the bishop. Accordingly, in order that there may be proper opportunity for inquiry into the matter, it is agreed that it would be well for synods to be held each year in each province twice a year, so that these inquiries may be conducted by all the bishops of the province assembled together, and in this way by general consent those who have offended against their own bishop may be recognised by all to be reasonably excommunicated, until all the bishops in common may decide to pronounce a more lenient sentence on these persons. The synods shall be held at the following times: one before Lent, so that, all pettiness being set aside, the gift offered to God may be unblemished; the second after the season of autumn.
  6. The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces the prerogatives of the churches are to be preserved. In general the following principle is evident: if anyone is made bishop without the consent of the metropolitan, this great synod determines that such a one shall not be a bishop. If however two or three by reason of personal rivalry dissent from the common vote of all, provided it is reasonable and in accordance with the church's canon, the vote of the majority shall prevail.
  7. Since there prevails a custom and ancient tradition to the effect that the bishop of Aelia is to be honoured, let him be granted everything consequent upon this honour, saving the dignity proper to the metropolitan.
  8. Concerning those who have given themselves the name of Cathars, and who from time to time come over publicly to the catholic and apostolic church, this holy and great synod decrees that they may remain among the clergy after receiving an imposition of hands. But before all this it is fitting that they give a written undertaking that they will accept and follow the decrees of the catholic church, namely that they will be in communion with those who have entered into a second marriage and with those who have lapsed in time of persecution and for whom a period [of penance] has been fixed and an occasion [for reconciliation] allotted, so as in all things to follow the decrees of the catholic and apostolic church. Accordingly, where all the ordained in villages or cities have been found to be men of this kind alone, those who are so found will remain in the clergy in the same rank; but when some come over in places where there is a bishop or presbyter belonging to the catholic church, it is evident that the bishop of the church will hold the bishop's dignity, and that the one given the title and name of bishop among the so-called Cathars will have the rank of presbyter, unless the bishop thinks fit to let him share in the honour of the title. But if this does not meet with his approval, the bishop will provide for him a place as chorepiscopus or presbyter, so as to make his ordinary clerical status evident and so prevent there being two bishops in the city.
  9. If any have been promoted presbyters without examination, and then upon investigation have confessed their sins, and if after their confession men have imposed hands upon such people, being moved to act against the canon, the canon does not admit these people, for the catholic church vindicates only what is above reproach.
  10. If any have been promoted to ordination through the ignorance of their promoters or even with their connivance, this fact does not prejudice the church's canon; for once discovered they are to be deposed.
  11. Concerning those who have transgressed without necessity or the confiscation of their property or without danger or anything of this nature, as happened under the tyranny of Licinius, this holy synod decrees that, though they do not deserve leniency, nevertheless they should be treated mercifully. Those therefore among the faithful who genuinely repent shall spend three years among the hearers, for seven years they shall be prostrators, and for two years they shall take part with the people in the prayers, though not in the offering.
  12. Those who have been called by grace, have given evidence of first fervour and have cast off their [military] belts, and afterwards have run back like dogs to their own vomit, so that some have even paid money and recovered their military status by bribes -- such persons shall spend ten years as prostrators after a period of three years as hearers. In every case, however, their disposition and the nature of their penitence should be examined. For those who through their fear and tears and perseverance and good works give evidence of their conversion by deeds and not by outward show, when they have completed their appointed term as hearers, may properly take part in the prayers, and the bishop is competent to decide even more favourably in their regard. But those who have taken the matter lightly, and have thought that the outward form of entering the church is all that is required for their conversion, must complete their term to the full.
  13. Concerning the departing, the ancient canon law is still to be maintained namely that those who are departing are not to be deprived of their last, most necessary viaticum. But if one whose life has been despaired of has been admitted to communion and has shared in the offering and is found to be numbered again among the living, he shall be among those who take part in prayer only [here a variant reading in Les canons des conciles oecumeniques adds "until the term fixed by this great ecumenical synod has been completed"]. But as a general rule, in the case of anyone whatsoever who is departing and seeks to share in the eucharist, the bishop upon examining the matter shall give him a share in the offering.
  14. Concerning catechumens who have lapsed, this holy and great synod decrees that, after they have spent three years as hearers only, they shall then be allowed to pray with the catechumens.
  15. On account of the great disturbance and the factions which are caused, it is decreed that the custom, if it is found to exist in some parts contrary to the canon, shall be totally suppressed, so that neither bishops nor presbyters nor deacons shall transfer from city to city. If after this decision of this holy and great synod anyone shall attempt such a thing, or shall lend himself to such a proceeding, the arrangement shall be totally annulled, and he shall be restored to the church of which he was ordained bishop or presbyter or deacon.
  16. Any presbyters or deacons or in general anyone enrolled in any rank of the clergy who depart from their church recklessly and without the fear of God before their eyes or in ignorance of the church's canon, ought not by any means to be received in another church, but all pressure must be applied to them to induce them to return to their own dioceses, or if they remain it is right that they should be excommunicated. But if anyone dares to steal away one who belongs to another and to ordain him in his church without the consent of the other's own bishop among whose clergy he was enrolled before he departed, the ordination is to be null.
  17. Since many enrolled [among the clergy] have been induced by greed and avarice to forget the sacred text, "who does not put out his money at interest", and to charge one per cent [a month] on loans, this holy and great synod judges that if any are found after this decision to receive interest by contract or to transact the business in any other way or to charge [a flat rate of] fifty per cent or in general to devise any other contrivance for the sake of dishonourable gain, they shall be deposed from the clergy and their names struck from the roll.
  18. It has come to the attention of this holy and great synod that in some places and cities deacons give communion to presbyters, although neither canon nor custom allows this, namely that those who have no authority to offer should give the body of Christ to those who do offer. Moreover it has become known that some of the deacons now receive the eucharist even before the bishops. All these practices must be suppressed. Deacons must remain within their own limits, knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and subordinate to the presbyters. Let them receive the eucharist according to their order after the presbyters from the hands of the bishop or the presbyter. Nor shall permission be given for the deacons to sit among the presbyters, for such an arrangement is contrary to the canon and to rank. If anyone refuses to comply even after these decrees, he is to be suspended from the diaconate.
  19. Concerning the former Paulinists who seek refuge in the catholic church, it is determined that they must be rebaptised unconditionally. Those who in the past have been enrolled among the clergy, if they appear to be blameless and irreproachable, are to be rebaptised and ordained by the bishop of the catholic church. But if on inquiry they are shown to be unsuitable, it is right that they should be deposed. Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity
 
> In tracing the origin of the Bible, one is led to AD 325, when
> Constantine the Great called the First Council of Nicaea, composed of
> 300 religious leaders. Three centuries after Jesus lived, this council
> was given the task of separating divinely inspired writings from those
> of questionable origin.
> The actual compilation of the Bible was an incredibly complicated
> project that involved churchmen of many varying beliefs, in an
> atmosphere of dissension, jealousy, intolerance, persecution and
> bigotry.
> At this time, the question of the divinity of Jesus had split the
> church into two factions. Constantine offered to make the little-known
> Christian sect the official state religion if the Christians would
> settle their differences. Apparently, he didn't particularly care what
> they believed in as long as they agreed upon a belief. By compiling a
> book of sacred writings, Constantine thought that the book would give
> authority to the new church.
 
> Christianity consisted of many sects. By converting Constantine
> (The Great) the Paul heresy triumphed as the concept of trinity and the ending of the
> Mosaic law (which made swine flesh permissible) brought this version of
> Christianity very close to the Hellenic paganism that was practiced in Rome
> and Greece. At Nicea Constantine had 300 versions of the Bible burnt, thus
> legitimising and patronizing only the Paulic heresy.
 
Also, we do know that there were many books of supposed prophets
> floating around up until 312 CE when the Council of Nicea decided
> which books were scripture and which ones were burned. Thanks to
> the notorious habit of early Christian leaders of destroying
> books/scrolls, we may never know what doctrine existed before the
> Council of Nicea.
 
Ако баш фино што си го постирал и ова, нешто ќе поднаучиш... Ако сакаш може и за никеја да дискутираме, пошто гледам на оваа тема си нокаутиран...:salut:
 
legend has it that at the Council of Nicea, Constantine was
>unsure of what else to include as a holy scripture (which later the batch
>became the Bible). He threw the batch that he was to choose from onto a
>table. Those that remained on the table were in, those that fell off were
>out.
 
> There are one or two places where there is evidence of which is 'right',
> the most famous example perhaps being the account of the raising of Lazarus
> which was removed from Mark on the instructions of the Council of Nicea as
> it hat overtones of a 'mystery cult'.
 
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