ПЕЛАЗГИ/ ИЛИРИ/ МАКЕДОНЦИ/ TRAKI/ FRIGI/ АЛБАНЦИ

[Sturmgewehr]

The Veneti are believed to have been originally a centum Indo-European people dwelling in the area of contemporary Poland. Their heritage is attributed to Pre-Slavic hydronyms found in the Vistula and Oder river basins. To a certain extent, these hydronyms fall within the scope of Old European hydronyms established by Hans Krahe (see Old European hydronymy).
It is not clear whether they were related to the Adriatic Veneti, a people whose language is attested in inscriptions dating from 6th to 1st centuries BC and is known to have been particularly closely related to the Italic languages (see Venetic language). Hydronyms attributed to the Vistula Veneti seem to show resemblances to those attested in the area of the Adriatic Veneti (in Northeastern Italy) as well as those attested in the Western Balkans that are attributed to Illyrians (for examples, linguistic comparisons and further reference see Gołąb 1992: 263-268), all of which may point to a possible connection between these ancient Indo-European peoples. However, some scholars may prefer to consider the Vistula Veneti as a distinct group.
Scholarly consensus suggests that the Pre-Slavic population of the Vistula and Oder river basins had a North-West Indo-European character with close affinities to the Italo-Celtic branch, but was definitely different from the Germanic branch (Gołąb 1992: 88).

Polish archaeologist Jerzy Okulicz has interpreted Veneti as the possible bearers of the Pomeranian culture, an Iron Age archaeological culture in Poland. Elements of the Pomeranian culture, in particular its bell-shaped burials group, have been ascertained in the successive Przeworsk culture, as well as in the Milograd culture to the east where eventually the Zarubintsy culture arose. If correctly interpreted, these archaeological data suggest that from 3rd century BC onwards Veneti entered into an intense cultural contact with Proto-Germanic and Proto-Slavic peoples and eventually assimilated with the two groups (Okulicz 1986; Pleterski 1995).

 

[AngPu]

кај постои некоја година порано од 500 мислам дека нема се до 500 словените биле во Украина и во останатиот дел на европа.

:pos2::pos2::pos2:

Уште еден пациент се приклучи, а пати од болеста Викифилија.

 

[Sturmgewehr]

The Veneti were geographically and temporaly contiguous to the Proto-Germanic and Proto-Slavic peoples and were eventually assimilated by both groups, perhaps even more decisively by Proto-Slavs who later settled in the territory which erstwhile belonged to the Veneti. The Germanic peoples subsequently transferred the ethnonym Veneti to their new easterly neighbours, the Slavs. This tradition survived in German language where Slavs living in closest proximity to Germany were originally called Wenden or Winden (see Wends), while the people of the Austrian federal lands Styria and Carinthia referred to their Slavic neighbours as Windische. It should be emphasised, though, that Slavic peoples never used the ethnonym Veneti for themselves but were called thus only by the neighbouring Germanic peoples. Such transfers of ethnonyms from one group to another are not unusual and have occurred frequently in history. An analogous example is the name Böhmer, formerly applied by Germans to the Czechs, which originally was the name of a Celtic tribe Boii who dwelt in Bohemia before the Serbs (before they moved south) and later the Czechs. Similarly, the name of the Celtic Volcae (Proto-Germanic *Walhoz) was adopted as the collective name for the Celtic peoples and later for the Romance peoples (Schenker 1996: 3-4; Steinacher 2002: 28-29).
Linguists agree in the opinion that Slavic languages evolved in close proximity with the Baltic languages, or, for that matter, originally formed a linguistic union with the Baltic languages, having later separated from the latter. The earliest origins of Slavs seem to lie in the area between the Middle Dniepr and the Bug rivers, where the most archaic Slavic hydronyms have been established (Gołąb 1992: 300). The mentioned area roughly corresponds with the Zarubintsy archeological culture which has been interpreted as the most likely locus of the ethnogenesis of Slavs.
According to Polish archaeologist Michał Parczewski, Slavs began to settle in southeastern Poland at no earlier than late 5th century AD, the Prague culture being their recognizable expression (Parczewski 1993).
In linguistic terms, there is evidence that during the course of its evolution Proto-Slavic adopted some lexical elements from a foreign, centum-type Indo-European language. As these lexical elements have correspondences in North-West Indo-European dialects, it has been proposed that contacts of Proto-Slavs with the Veneti may have been the source for these borrowings (Gołąb 1992: 175; for detailed examples see p. 79-86).

 

[Sturmgewehr]

:pos2::pos2::pos2:

Уште еден пациент се приклучи, а пати од болеста Викифилија.

мислам нема потреба од навреди убаво си дискутираме во форумот ако си заинтересиран читај тоа што сум ти аплодирал и после објасни ако не е така али тешко дека ке докажеш дека е спротивното од тоа што го каѓувам јас пошто историата е веке допишана и искаѓана а се што се допишува во денешно време е фикција за да се користи со политичка цел и да бејн уаш некој ко тебе.:smir:

сигурен сум дека ни збор не си прочитал од тоа што аплодирав ја а богами ја досега ги прочитав твоите постови и затоа прам реплика а не на памет и со навреди ако не можеш да ме предизвикаш на интелектуално ниво тогаш не навредувај.

 

[Sturmgewehr]

Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
In 2nd century AD, Ptolemy in his work De Geographia (III 5. 21.) mentions a people called Ouenedai along the southern shores of the Baltic, which he calls the Venedic Bay. Considering Ptolemy's Ouenedai and their location along the Baltic sea, a German linguist, Alexander M. Schenker, underlines that the vocabulary of the Slavic languages shows no evidence that the early Slavs were exposed to the sea. Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology and even lacked a word for amber which was the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of his times with the Slavs (Schenker 1996: 3-5). Schenker's conclusion is supported by the fact that to the east of the Ouenedai, Ptolemy mentions two further tribes called Stauanoi and Souobenoi, both of which have been interpreted as possibly the oldest historcial attestations of Slavs (Gołąb 1992: 291).
According to Steinacher (2002: 32), the Adriatic Veneti, the Veneti of Gaul and the North Balkan/Paphlagonian Enetoi mentioned by Herodotus and Appian were not related to each other, nor to the Veneti/Venedi mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy.
The historical document Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi along the Black Sea and the Venadi Sarmatae north of the Carpathians (see Gołąb 1992: 287-291, 295-296).
In 551 AD Gothic author Jordanes in his book De origine actibusque Getarum (30-35) wrote, that the Venethi include Antes and Sclaveni. Jordanes also states that the same tribes were subdued by Ermanaric in the IV century.

"The name Veneder was introduced by Jordanes. The assumption that these were Slavs can be traced back to the 16th century to P. J. Schaforschik from Prague, who tried to establish a Slavic Origin history. Scholars and historians since then viewed the reports on Venedi/Venethi by Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy as the earliest historical attestation of Slavs. In addition, phonetic similarity and geographic proximity of the ethnicons Veneti and Vandali inspired an erroneous belief that the Germanic people of Vandals were Slavs as well" (Steinacher 2004; see also Origins of Vandals). Such conceptions, started in the 16th century, resurfaced in 19th century where they provided the basis for interpretations of the history and origins of Slavs (Steinacher 2002: 31-35). Modern history nowadays clearly distinguishes two matters: one is the existence of several different ancient peoples by the name of Veneti, and the other one is the fact that Germanic peoples adopted that ethnonym for their easterly neighbours, the Slavs.
In 1980s some Slovene individuals proposed a theory according to which the Veneti were Proto-Slavs and bearers of the Lusatian culture along the Amber Path who conquered and settled the region between the Baltic sea and Adriatic Sea. This theory has been rejected by several Slovenian and other scholars as untenable (Skrbiš 2002).

 

[Силен]

венетите ги спомнува тој но не кажува дека се словени а како ја објаснуваш ти поврзаноста на венетите и словените?

Некоји поопшти докази ако имаш?

и пак тие дошле во 6 тиот век тука мислам словените

These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni.

Еве го пак цитатот од Јорданес:

These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni.

Еве на македонски:

Овие луѓе, како што кажавме на почетокот во каталогот на нациите, иако производ од еден род, сега имаат три имиња, и тие се, Венети, Анти и Словени.

Да ја читнеше реченицата претходно ќе ти беше јасно дека се однесува за Венетите и тоа Јорданес многу јасно го пишува.

Верувам дека многу добро ти е познато од кое дело е цитатов чим веќе дискутираш за Венетите и Словените!

И ова дело ти е верувам добро познато.

Pylaemenes,
a brave soldier, commanded Paphlagonians
from Enetae, where herds of mules run wild,

Пилајмен храбар воин ги командуваше Пафлагонците од Венетија (Енетија), каде трчаат крда од диви мулиња

Венетите се предци на Словените и уште сто Википедии нема да ти помогнат, само го спамираш форумот!

Претпоставувам знаеш за Венетската река на Балканот?

Масовна миграција на Словени немало и ќе бидам многу среќен да ми дадеш еден документ од византијско време каде се спомнува дека Словени мигрирале од кај Карпатите и се населиле трајно на Балканот.

Имало воени инвазии и напади при што некои (мал број) од воената елита имаат трајно останато и ги организираат Славиниите. Верувам дека ти е јасна разликата помеќу миграција и воена инвазија?

Познато ти е што направил Јустинијан во Мала Азија?

Ако сакаш да дискутираш и да научиш нешто ново бујрум, а ако не тогаш да не си губиме време (и без википедиа следниот пат)!

 

[Sturmgewehr]

остај Јорданес и морданес туку тој што живеел кажал Птоломеј јасно објаснува истотака и германските историчари а финтата на википедиа не си ја Капирал пошто ги постирав поради нивните извори а не оти не знаеш за Венетиоте така што тоа е многу јасно а теоријата дека Карпатските венети имале врска со балканските не е точна и словенски историчари ја демантирале тезата во 2002 така што можеш слепо само да си веруваш во таа теорија Адриатичките венети и карпатските немат врска тоа ти е исто како и местото Albny во њу јорк и друи коинциденции.

Не велам дека словените немат врска со Венедите но тие се Карпатските не Адриатичките, а тоа јасно го докажале историчарите сега некој Јоранос се појавил после 500 години и си објснува добро објаснува Птоломеј и германските истражувачи.

Тука немало словени се до 6 век после тоа се доселија тие и дојдоа тука а тука нормална работа ѓивееле Илирите и Грците и Траците, а античките македонци биле рци со делумен број на Илири и траци.

 

[Силен]

Не велам дека словените немат врска со Венедите но тие се Карпатските не Адриатичките, а тоа јасно го докажале историчарите сега некој Јоранос се појавил после 500 години и си објснува добро објаснува Птоломеј и германските истражувачи.

Тука немало словени се до 6 век после тоа се доселија тие и дојдоа тука а тука нормална работа ѓивееле Илирите и Грците и Траците, а античките македонци биле рци со делумен број на Илири и траци.

Што не кажа дека си докторирал од википедиа, јас немам веќе што да ти кажам, ти се знаеш многу поубаво од мене.

ПС. Имаш право Јорданес морданес е сељак, кој го шиша :wink:.

 

[Serdarot]

античките македонци биле рци со делумен број на Илири и траци.

hu baba hu...

Antickite Makedonci bile i Rci, i Grci, i Bugari, i Albanci, i Trakijci, i Marsovci, SE bile, samo ne Makedonci

Aj vidi na wikipedija koja drzava e taa rca ili rka, kade sto ziveat rci-te...


A be strumgewehr... daj go toj messerschmidt-ot, toj barem amuzanten beshe

Dosadni ste vekje... odete malku na Grcki forumi, kazvajte im kako Solun bil naselen so mnozinstvo Albanci :pos2:
(procitav denes na eden forum se trkalav od smeenje )

Jas celo vreme se cudam kaj otidoa to Makedoncite, tie se maskirale gjoa Albanci be°!

 

[goca]

ШО СЕ ИЗНАСМЕА, остај веќе почнав да се прашувам дали постојам или некој притиснал дилејт , си го гледал „автопоетски водич низ галаксијата “ ...

 

[AngPu]

Еве и еден трип од мене.
Гоца, ете го Антарес, сонцето е само еден пиксел (невидливо)

 

[fanatic]

ESHTE SHUM SHUM INTERESANT HISTORIA E POPULLIT SHQIPTAR NEPER BOT,,,,,,, ME SHUM SE 800.000 SHQIPTAR JETOJN NE ITALI,, 400.000 NE GJERMONI,,200.000 NE ZVICER,, 500.000 NE SHBA,, ANGLI 80.000, SUEDI 50.000,, DANIMARK 40.000 , AUSTRALI 50.000 ETJ ETJ,,,

POR SHQIPTARET NE RUSI, ESHTE NJE HISTORI QE RRALLKUSH E DIN,,,, AZERBAJAN ESHTE SHTET NE ISH BASHKIMIN SOVIETIK KU JETOJN MESE 100.000 SHQIPTAR,,,--

PER TE GJITH JU QE DINI ANGLISHTEN JU FTOJ TE LEXONI HISTORI SHQIPTARE MJAFT INTERESANTECAUCASIAN ALBANIAN LANGUAGE - ALBANIANS IN AZERBAIJAN - USSR


One of the most fascinating aspects related to the decipherment of the Caucasian Albanian written language is that there is a living community today that still continues to speak this language. Udins, who live primarily in Azerbaijan, are the descendants of the Caucasian Albanians. (Don't confuse Caucasian Albanians with the people and language living in the Baltics). More than 2,000 years later, despite the fact that their language has not been in a written form since, at least, the 10th century, the language still is alive. We interviewed Zurab Konanchev to learn more about the Udins of today. Zurab is the Founder of the Albanian Research Center and Deputy Chairman of the recently registered Albanian Udin Christian Community of the Azerbaijani Republic.

The discovery and decipherment of the Caucasian Albanian alphabet is an epochal event for Udins. For me, getting a chance to accompany Georgian decipherer Zaza Alexidze and Azerbaijani historian Farida Mammadova this past May to St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai, Egypt, was an experience of a lifetime.

Left: Author Zurab Konanchev as tourist in Cairo in May 2003.

For me, an Udin and a historian just to hold that manuscript in my hands was like touching history. It's such a difficult feeling to describe. Can you imagine that more than 1,500 years ago an Albanian was sitting there writing those words? It makes you realize that history never really disappears. The discovery and decipherment of Caucasian Albanian is such an important event for our people. It's only natural that we would be excited about it. Every group on earth wants to feel connected to their roots. Especially for us Udins, this discovery is so important as there are not many of us left.

The latest estimate of the Udin population was 8,000 (1989); today, some suggest the figure to be about 10,000. The majority of Udins live in northern Azerbaijan near Gabala in two areas. An estimated 4,000 Udins reside in the village of Nij and about 100 live in the Oghuz region. There has not been a census since the collapse of the Soviet Union, so no one is absolutely certain what the total Udin population is. A small number also live in the cities of Baku and Sumgayit. There are also small groups living in Russia, Georgia, and Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.

Albanians in History
Caucasian Albania was a state that existed on what is now the territory of Azerbaijan Historically, it is believed to have existed between the 4th century B.C. and 8th century A.D. From about the 4th century A.D. onward, Albanians adopted Christianity. The manuscripts written in Caucasian Albanian found at Mt. Sinai consist of an Albanian Christian Lectionary dating from about the 5th century.

Left: Zurab Konanchev and Dr. Farida Mammadova (left) accompanied the decipherer Dr. Zaza Alexidze (right) to Mt. Sinai to St. Catherine's Orthodox Monastery to see the Caucasian Albanian scripts. Zurab is Udi, a descendent of the Caucasian Albanians.

The last Albanian Catholicos up until the Arab conquest in 703 was Orthodox. However, during the Arabs rule on the territory, the Armenian Catholicos wrote a letter to Abd-al Malik, the Arabian khalifa attacking Albanian Orthodox beliefs and accusing Albanians of fostering a friendship with Byzantium. Since the Arabs did not have good relations with Byzantium, they gave a decree that the Albanian church would be put under the jurisdiction of the Armenian church.

Again in 1836, the Russian czar, Nicholas again put pressure on the Udins and to come under the jurisdiction of the Armenian Gregorian church. From that time onward, Udins stopped practicing Christianity. In the beginning, we were told to pray in Armenian, which we didn't understand. Then we were forbidden to visit our own churches, and Armenian churches were built next to our churches. As a result, some Udins accepted Islam, others became Gregorians by marrying Armenians, especially on the territory of Karabakh.
________________________________________

Повторно постирамј ист текст и од Рамиз и другарите не видов коментари.Па ајде рамиз како добар познавач на Англиски те молам преведини нам јужните словени (античките македонци)

 

[AngPu]

Се извинувам ја утнав кривината кај Сомбреро.

Но сепак си дојдовме дома.

 

[enhallon]

Eve pile gledaj tuka protoiindo-evropianskiot jazik.gledas kolku mal si?treba da me pocituvas zs jas sum bratuced so tvoite baltic-sloveni prededovci!!!

 

[enhallon]

zapamti dobro!!