Словени

[Sinisa]

ne znam za arheologiju i genetiku, al za antropologiju sa ovih nasih prostora, biblija se zove "karakterologija jugoslovena". ne znam ko je autor, davno sam je citao. zaista, zakon knjiga, ulazi u kategoriju "must read".

Имам ту књигу, аутор је Владимир Дворниковић. Ово капитално дело из 1940. може да се купи у Београду за нешто око 800 динара (10 еура.), зато што издавач "Просвета" празни своје магацине.

Иако је југословенство било тада нешто као државна идеологија, (једна нација-југословенска, сам Дворниковић изразити Југословен, мислим хрватског порекла, нисам сигуран) дело је темељно и лако је одвојити све оно што је тадашње време носило са собом. С друге стране, ту лежи и неки чар књиге. Знамо како је изгледала тадашња Европа и да су демократске земље биле у мањини, а да је порекло људи постало необично битно. И ја дајем препоруку.

edit: stavljam link http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/488/08.html

VIRTUELNI JUGOSLOVENI: Ubrzo po prvom objavljivanju "Karakterologije" 1939, Jugosloveni su dobili priliku da od 1941. do 1945. pokažu dvojstvo svih osobina čijem je proučavanju Dvorniković posvetio decenije rada. Potom su se, tokom pola veka zajedničkog života u drugoj Jugoslaviji, primirili; broj onih koji su se u to vreme osećali i na popisima izjašnjavali kao Jugosloveni dostigao je 1,38 miliona. Početkom devedesetih godina idila je završena na način koji je metaforu balkanske krčme pretvorio u dobroćudnu šalu: u krvavom raspadu koji je počeo 1991. složno su učestvovala sva karakterna braća bivše Jugoslavije. Izuzev Makedonaca, treba potsetiti, bez obzira na to što se ta činjenica u "nacionalnim" logikama eks jugoslovenskih naroda može tumačiti kao krunski dokaz da oni – nisu Jugosloveni.

 

[Misirkov]

Sinisa - blagodaram, ajde da se dogovorime na pp! Sto se odnesuva do "karakterologija" - eve nesto od "Nedeljni Telegraf". :wink: Iako temata e mnogu seriozna, tuka e nafrlena vo stilot na zholta shtampa:

http://img231.echo.cx/img231/6601/poceospecijalniratgenimanabalk.jpg

http://img231.echo.cx/img231/6563/poceospecijalniratgenimanabalk5.jpg

http://img231.echo.cx/img231/8458/poceospecijalniratgenimanabalk2.jpg

http://img231.echo.cx/img231/5732/poceospecijalniratgenimanabalk3.jpg

http://img231.echo.cx/img231/7070/poceospecijalniratgenimanabalk4.jpg


P.S. Devojka ti e arheolog?! :shock: Pa toa e kruna na site "kategorizacii" vo zhenskiot svet!!! Sem mozebi ako ne se bavi so klasicna "anticka istorija" primary sources. Mora da si prezadovolen. :wink:

 

[Sinisa]

P.S. Devojka ti arheolog?! :shock: Pa toa e kruna na site "kategorizacii" vo zhenskiot svet!!! Ssem mozebi ako ne se bavi so klasicna "anticka istorija" primary sources. Mora da si prezadovolen. :wink:

Па није било лоше и трајало је годинама. Али сада је готово и живимо у различитим државама а чујемо се с времена на време.

Они линкови јесу жута штампа у том смислу што је по мени бесмислено национално присвајати нешто што се догађало пре пар хиљада година. То припада свима са ових простора, на Балкану и Европи.

 

[Macedalien]

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF

Повелете!

 

[Sinisa]

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF

Повелете!

Далеко је ово још од објективности. Али пошто су коришћени углавном грчки и бугарски извори, капирам да је могло и горе да буде.

 

[Macedalien]

Далеко је ово још од објективности. Али пошто су коришћени углавном грчки и бугарски извори, капирам да је могло и горе да буде.

А што не е објективно? Башка - никакво истражување ниту извор не е искористен без да се направи анкета на теренот :wink:

Човекот е едноставно гениј : живее во Македонија веќе 15 години и е академик во МАНУ а да не зборам за личното пријателство со мене :arrow:

 

[Sinisa]

Дат је врло информативан и ја мислим реалан пресек садашње ситуације. И ја препоручујем текст свакоме кога интересује ово питање.

Међутим, део који се односи на кључна историјска кретања (а то је већи део) чини ми се да пати од селективности и жеље за компромисом. (Моје мишљење). Полемише се о стварима које не би требало да буду предмет полемика. При том да опет нагласим, не побијам написано, већ начин одабира извора. Питам се шта неко сасвим неупућен, који се први пут среће са овом темом, може да закључи из свега овога.

 

[Svetovid]

Chitajte brakja i sestri [EDITED! PRIPAZI NA RECNIKOT - OD MODERATORITE]:

The only evidence for a great migration of Slavs in historical times that traditional scholars can possibly claim lies in a literal reading of the mentions of medieval historians, such as the Thracian Priscus of Panion (5th century), the Greek Procopius of Cesarea (6th century) and the Goth Jordanes (6th century), or those of the Church (e.g. Conte 1990, 33-34). But it is quite evident that such mentions do not point unambiguously to an ‘invasion’ or ‘migration’ of Slavs, but can just as simply be taken as to refer to pre-existing Slavs, the presence of which even traditional scholars now admit. When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian (527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Bizantine territori by “the damned people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they are ‘arriving’! And when, in his De rebus Gethicis Jordanes describes the location of the Venedi, and writes that they inhabited the area “From the source of the Visla river and on incommensurable expanses”, he does not give the slightest indication of a recent arrival of theirs, but simply describes a statu quo. And I challenge Slavic specialists to find any indication of a recent arrival of the Slavs in their area in other medieval sources. Not only, but when earlier historians, living in the centuries preceding the
supposed arrival of the Slavs, write that the population of the Carpatian Basin offered a drink called medos (Proto-Slavic medŭ ‘drink produced with honey”) the Byzantine ambassadors directed to the court of Attila (king of the Huns), and that a part of the funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called strava (medieval name of a Slavic funeral ritual), only a biased reader can find evidence in this for the “first infiltrations” of Slavs in the Carpatian area, especially as they seem to have left not trace of their coming! (Neustupný-Neustupný 1963, 196). The much simpler truth is that the Slavs were there from remote times. For, again, the first mention of peoples in writing depends on the birthday of writing, and not on the birthday of peoples! In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to the North from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, the most important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which is entirely missing. Just as we miss any dscussion of this point in Mallory’s book –and certainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see, then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion that involves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity, without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case of underestimation of one’s own science. 27 Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following the traditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved also the Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there has been a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards. A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between the idea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existing languages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormous technological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people, have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. The ideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a Copper Age IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the fact that research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996, 2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highly civilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the pre-Indo-European substrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – a phantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientific thinking.

Linkov specijalno za nashiot jazichar Macedalien:
http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

 

[Svetovid]

I ushte malku "jazichenje" specijalno za Macedalien:

Unquestionably, the homogeneity of the Slavic languages, which contrasts so strikingly with the internal differentiation of Germanic, Romance and Celtic, for example, can only be explained in two ways: by positing: (A) a very high degree of cultural and social stability for a very long period, or (B); a most rapid expansion of the Slavs, the tempo of which would have prevented the original Slavic language (Proto-Slavic) from changing in the new areas. Something like what happened, for instance, to the English language of the Pilgrims when they migrated to America, for its rapid expansion into the new continent produced much fewer dialectal differences – despite its enormous area – than, say, British English shows in the island of England.

The traditional theory was indeed coherent with this approach, when it assumed the ‘arrival’ of the Slavs in historical times, following their ‘great migration’. This scenario did indeed involve a sort of blitz-invasion of most Eastern Europe, which in turn would explain the homogeneity of the Slavic languages as they are now. But in the modified scenario now current for Slavic specialists, envisaging a chronological gap of two millennia from the first ‘arrival’ in the Bronze age, and the later ‘migration’ of historical times, how can this argument still hold? Rather than beeing stable, the two millennia of the Bronze, Iron Age and the beginning of our era form – on the contrary – one of the most turbulent periods of European prehistory, protohistory and history:
Celts, Greeks, Romans, Illyrians and other people (including Slavs themselves, if we accept this theory!), were constantly on the war path, occupying other people’s territories, and greatly influencing their languages and cultures, as the numerous Celtic, Greek and Latin loanwords in the Slavic languages abundantly witness.

 

[ABC]

Lingvistot dr.Petar Basheski bi mozel najubavo da vi objasni shto znacele ruskite zborovi -Sloveni su nam prishli od zad Karpatov-.Inaku "Bashe" beshe profesor so izvonredno poznavanje na nekolku jazici.

 

[yin yang]

А сега не разбирам јас. Словени сме или Старо-Македонци?


Мислам... според вас.. ?

 

[Homer MakeDonski]

би го побарал одговорот преку прашање:
-Дали во историјата е забележано за Македонци кои се заведени под терминот “словени’ или Словени заведени како Македонци ?
за мене одговорот што го дава историјата е само еден
Македонци под терминот “словени’

 

[Итар Пејо од Мариово]

А сега не разбирам јас. Словени сме или Старо-Македонци?


Мислам... според вас.. ?

Jajce li sme ili kokoshka?

 

[aco]

Da ama postoi kontinuitet baby! Slovenite ne ni dosle tie bile tuka. I da dosle primile se od Makedoncite i se narekle taka. Kako iaku ke go objasnis faktot deka ona pleme od okolu 30000 lugje vo Pakistan koe znae deka poteknuva od vojskite na Aleksandar ima ista muzika,folklor, simboli, jazik na koj mozam da gi razberam ali so poteskotija normalno pominale 2500 godini i genteski-fizionomski karakteristiki so nas Makedoncite, i ne go primile izlamot. Dokumentarecot moes da go pogledas ako se zainteresiras. A ja so mislis so su? i 2000000 tuka i 2.500.000 vo dijasporata. I kazi mi Metodij bilpostaven od vizantiskiot car vo strumica komandat na voeniot garnizon da ja brani od kogo so mislis?

 

[BobRock]

What was like the ancient Macedonian language?

Не знам дали ова веќе е постирано. Премногу ми беше да читам 15 страни постови.

Но, еве го и линкот

http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites.htm

Автор на текстот е Александар Донски.
Таму има поголем текст за сличностите на фолклорот меѓу денешните Македонци и Античките Македонци

Значи еве само дел од примерите:ж

Ata(s). The root of this name contains the noun "at", which in the so called "Old Slavic language" meant "a horse". We note that the ancient Macedonians were great horsemen and horses were very importaint for them. Such names allready exsists in onomasticons of other peoples (for example Bulgarians have their popular name Asparuh, which means "speed horse" in Old Bulgarian language). The same name "Ata" is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Apell(es). The root of this name contains the noun "apel" (a call) which we have in the present day Macedonian language.

Atarhi(as). The root of this name contains the noun "atar". This is a Macedonian archaism for the word "love". Names that contain the word "love" exist in a majority of lexicons.

Bere(s). The root of this name contains the verb "bere" (to pick up) that exists today in the Macedonian language and in other "Slavic" languages. Also in the present day Macedonian onomasticon there are names derived from verbs. The name "Bere" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Crater(us)32). The root of this name contains the word "krater" (crater) which exsists in the present day Macedonian and other "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name "Krate".

Caran(us)33). This name might be connected to the present day Macedonian noun "kruna" (a crown). The name "Karanche" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Dada. The noun "dada" in the present day Macedonian language means "older sister". The name "Dada" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Daron. This is a name for the ancient Macedonian god of healing. Its etymology is known, and it means "he that gives health." This means that the name of this god contains the Macedonian noun "dar" (a gift). The names Darun, Dare, Dara and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Del(us). The verb "dela" (to work) exists in the so called "Old Slavic language", as well as in several present day "Slavic languages". The name "Dele" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Dimno(s). The adjective "dimno" exists in the present day Macedonian language and still means "steamy The names Dimna, Dimon, Dimnak and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Diplai(os)34). A name of an upper Macedonian (Payonian) ruler. In his name is the noun "dipla" that in dialectal form in the present day Macedonian language means a bouquet of flowers. The noun "dipla" is also used as a designation for a type of old Macedonian instrument.

Dita. The noun exists in Slavic languages as "dite" or "dete", which means "a child". In 19th century Macedonian onomasticon was recordered the same name "Dita".

Dita(s). This is an obvious form of the preceding name Dita, but it has been Hellenized with the suffix "s".

Dud(es). The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic" languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Glaukia(s)35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36)
Gauan(us). This is an old originally ancient Macedonian name, first mentioned by Herodotus. It has obvious similarities to the noun "gaval", that represents an archaism for the "kaval" (a short Macedonian wind instrument). In 15th century Macedonia one finds the male names: Gavale and Gavala.

Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name Kopra.

Lasten. This name may be connected to the noun "lastovica" (in Serbian: "lasta"), which means "a swallow". The name Laste is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.

Lyka. This female Macedonian name, which exists in the present day language, is possibly derived from the noun "lika" (a face, pretty face). The name Lika is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.

Milo. This name was mentioned by Plutarch as a name of a Macedonian military leader in the Macedonian-Roman conflicts. This name exists to the present day in the Macedonian onomasticon. It has an obvious identification with the present day Macedonian adjective "milo" (dear), from which a number of names are (Milosh, Milko, Milka).