Абе каде, кај пишат, кај пиши БУДА дека не се?
Георгиев вели дека се Дардани, односно Дако-Мизи...
И сите други...
Ти веруваш на една палета Историчари, јас на друга! Сега шо праиме.
Сега Генетика ќе каже кој од каде и како е!
Башка Традицијата, фолклорот, носија, култура итн., како што ги презентирав преѓе индициират баш тоа што јас го зборувам.
Сите тие што ги наброја ги ставаат во старите балкански народи, дали тоа биле ТРАКИ, дали тоа биле МИЗИ, или ДАКИ, или Илири, или ДАРДАНИ, или Хелени итн...
Башка има разлика меѓу мене и тебе, што ти користиш туѓи претпоставки и теории, јас користам кои, консеквенци на испитаност, како што преѓе истакнав.
Мојот мозок е еластичен и лесно разбира, твојот и на Ajnaveno, мозоци заштрафени со ДОЈЧН мутери и бургии, не ги отвара рим папа, а со тоа јас немам проблем, оти се што кажа се претпоставки, на крај ГЕНЕТИКА си има свој јазик, а тој е НАЈРЕЛЕВАНТЕН, барем како што во светот се смета, и во Хераклеа археолозите истото го сметаат... Ти си имаш проблем со генетиката не и веруваш, 90% во светот и веруваат, така да во квантитет си победен...
See the attached Word file for the frequency and variance maps for V13 and J2b2-M241 from this study. The variance peaks in Split Croatia for V13 and has a lesser peak around Konya, Turkey. The actual calculated age (based on variance) in Konya was 9.4 kya (+/-2.9) compared with 9.2 kya (+/-4.3). There is no meaningful difference in these two calculations. The variance for J2b2 (which Cruciani has identified as V13's brother clade within the population of the Balkans) peaks at Konya also, at 10.1 kya (+/-3.4). This would appear to be a single population with two clades making up the male portion. Catal-Hoyuk is not far from Konya. It's my opinion that they have found the origin of V13/M241 (Catal Hoyuk region) but don't like the resulting conclusion. I doubt seriously that V13 and J2b2 arose simultaneously and separately in two regions of the near east at exactly the same time. Ergo, they came from the location where both variances peaked: near Konya, Turkey.
Combining the King et al and Battaglia et al papers, a highly speculative sequence of settlement can be developed:
1. Catal-Hoyuk (10.1-10.4 kya) - 8400-8100 B.C. - the Neolithic revolution is founded
within a few centuries, overpopulation occurs
2. People spread out to several other locations: Lerna/Franchthi, Split, Corfu, Sicily, Apulia. (Initial Neolithic, 9-10 kya)
(Sicily turns out to be quite old in both clades; older than Greece BTW, about 10.0 kya for M241. I have calculated a similar ASD age for V13 in Sicily.
)
3. Other settlements appears: Nea Nikomedeia, Maliq, Starcevo, etc. (8.6 kya) - this is the main wave of the Early Neolithic in the Balkans
4. The proto-Greeks finally make the scene in Sesklo-Dimini (about 4.3 kya) - but they may have migrated there from Lerna, following the House of Tiles destruction (about the same time)?
The Albanians appear to emerge as the oldest population in the Balkans outside of Lerna, with the exception of Split, Croatia, which is almost as far south as Montenegro anyway. The variance table shows clearly that V13 spread from west to east and from north to south in the western Balkans. Given the associations, I am of the opinion that the Albanian V13 in the Vardar-Morava corridor is derived from the Illyrian population.
Since Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia were ignored completely in this study, I can't say whether those folks (clearly within Thracian and Dacian regions) are older, younger or the same age as the Illyrian V13/M241 populations. Mocsy held that the population west of the Vardar-Morava valleys were Illyrian and east of the same valley were Thracian. Perhaps he was exactly correct.
I think that I may have found a way to test my Roman hypothesis, however. Back to the spreadsheets!
Steve
I did something today that I rarely have done: I plunked down $32 bucks for the new Battaglia paper. It was worth it.
There are 235 new haplotypes in this study. The remaining haplos (a total of 1206) are derived from previous studies (Rootsi 2004, Semino 2004, Marjanovic 2005.) What is most interesting to me is that all of their conclusions, designed to support the cultural diffusion model, are based on the EE mutation rate from ZUF 2004 (.00069) or put another way, an EE rate of 3.6, which would appear to be at least highly questionable if not incorrect outright. If a lower rate is used (say, 2.4) it may drop the entire data set in line with the early Neolithic. I plan to do some ASD calcs later today.
Dienekes will not be pleased; the variance for V13 peaks in Split, Croatia! (I observed the same thing some time ago from the haplotypes reported in Forensic Science International). The other variance peak is around Konya, Turkey. (Chatal-Hoyuk). The obvious implication is that there is nothing particularly "Greek" about V13 or J2b2-M241 (the Balkan subclade of J2-M12). V13 is oldest along the Adriatic among the Albanians. However, it is even older in Apulia and Sicily. (!)
Here is an interesting quote:
"The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described virtually only in Northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."
I think that it can be reasonably argued that the Albanians are descended from the indigenous population of V13's found in the Balkans, rather than the Greek population. Considering the location along the Adriatic that represents the variance peak (Split), I think that we must call them "Illyrian."
The other interesting twist on all of this new info is that the authors are attempting to support the "cultural diffusion" model at the expense of demic diffusion with regard to the Balkan peninsula. Considering that their entire argument hinges on the use of the 3.6 EE rate, I am not so sure that they have been successful with the attempt. Then, after all of the effort to promote the CD model over DD, they attribute the spread of Cardial Ware (Impressed Ware) to V13, which is of course a demic diffusion based model!
Once again, Cruciani is excluded from the discussion except for when absolutely necessary, even though they refer to his haplotype data from time to time. Weird.
As far as I can gather (as a non-archaeologist), the archaeological picture is remarkably clear for the Balkans. Edwin E. Jacques,
The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present (1995) can be partly read online, thanks to Google. Page 11 is the crucial bit, describing the influx of Indo-Europeans into the Balkans in the Early Bronze Age which is apparent in the archaeology. I have added that reference to the article.
Mallory (my first reference re the Balkans) says that archaeologists of Albania and (the former) Yugoslavia and their colleagues in linguistics make a careful distinction between the Indo-European-speaking incomers and the later Illyrians, whom they see as a product of the IE incomers mixing with the local Neolithic population, to produce the people and languages known as Illyrian.
I see what you are asking though. Who contributed most to the genetic make-up of the various peoples speaking Indo-European languages at the dawn of history?
The incomers or the Neolithic natives in the various places settled by those incomers? I think we are some way off being able to answer that with any precision. David Anthony talks in terms of small incoming bands, but language change usually comes about through weight of numbers, and it looks to me like the genetics points that way (as I say in the article.) What else can I say? We need more aDNA studies I think.
E сега ќе те молам, да ја затнеш муцката, да на јадеш веќе од смрдеата, оти почна да мирисаш.
НА КРАЈ АНТРОПОЛОГИЈА!
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
Дискусијата со коментари е уште поинтересна, и секако се препорачува Steven Bird, а за него знаеме многу...:back:
