Тенкови и тенковски операции во втора светска војна

[Klin]

Тукашни критериуми?
Мар кет Гар ден.

Севастопол

 

[Björn]

Images of Kursk, History's Greatest Tank Battle - July 1943 [Nic Cornish-BRASSEY's] pdf download link

И овааа слика ти е со датата прецизна. Буквално на денешен ден, се смета дека е пресвртницата во Втора Светска Војна. Од денешен ден, па надаље, немаат повеќе иницијатива за големи операции. Таа оди кај сојузниците.

 

[Klin]

Мајштајн не беше член на нацистичка партија, беше генерал, земјата влезе во војна и тој и служеше.
Многу генерали и адмирали не само германски, чесно и професионално ја извршуваа својата работа иако знаеа дека војната не е добра за нивната земја или дека се мали шанси за победа.
Ромел доби војни почасти зато шо беше преставен како херој, нешо као звезда, а неговото учество во завера никаде не е документовано ниту докажано. Јас лично не верувам поради тоа што тој беше фанатичен нацист и верен на итлера. Можеби падна во некои меѓусебни судири во врвот на нацистичката партија после атентатот кога настрадаа и многу невини поради сосема други причини

Ај еден нокдаун,

ако се издвои само актот на поддршка и се направи со една паралела тука, според тоа што си напишал тие што беа свесни за штетите кои ги нанесува одредена власт а се свесни за тоа т.е се дел од истата, со тоа што ниту декларативно не презеле нешто против тоа, ги рпави лојални на државата?

 

[Björn]

Севастопол

Што има он со Севастопол?

 

[Klin]

Што има он со Севастопол?

Battle of the Kerch Peninsula

Soviet amphibious operation
On 26 December 1941, the Soviets landed on Kerch, and on 30 December executed another landing near Feodosiya with the 44th and 51st Armies. The operation was to drive to Sevastopol and relieve the garrison, now encircled by the German 11th Army.[4] The 46th Infantry Division, under Lieutenant General Kurt Himer, was the only division in a position to be able to block the Soviet advance. The commander of the German 11th Army, Erich von Manstein, believed it could contain the landing, but the Soviets consolidated their bridgeheads and defeated the attacking Romanian brigades. As a result, the XLII Corps commander, Lieutenant General Hans Graf von Sponeck, chose to withdraw the 46th Infantry Division from Kerch through the Parpach narrows to avoid being caught and encircled by Soviet forces advancing from the landing zones located at the extreme east (Kerch) and west (Feodosiya) of the peninsula. Manstein diverted the XXX Corps to support XLII Corps, forming a new front at Feodosiya. They succeeded in sealing off the Soviet armies in the Kerch peninsula. The Soviet landings had saved Sevastopol and seized the initiative.[5] Casualties were high.

Не е никој безгрешен, уште помалку совршен. Чие протеже беше Мајнштајн? Кој е тој генерал кој поради хомосексуални склоности нацистите го деградираа, а покрај него како негов најблизок соработник и Мајнштајн?

 

[Björn]

Абре Монтгомери што велиш дека бил јак генерал, што има со Севастопол?
Или можда ко да ми се учини дека ги споредуваш Монти со Манштајн?

 

[Let 3]

Ај еден нокдаун,

ако се издвои само актот на поддршка и се направи со една паралела тука, според тоа што си напишал тие што беа свесни за штетите кои ги нанесува одредена власт а се свесни за тоа т.е се дел од истата, со тоа што ниту декларативно не презеле нешто против тоа, ги рпави лојални на државата?

Мајнштајн беше професионален војник кој ги извршуваше задачите на начин како мислеше дека е најдобро а не како шо ќе му наредеше итлер. Затоа и беше сменуван често па и отпуштан, за да го викаат пак назат кога некаде германските армии ќе влезеа во тешка ситуација.
Ромел го слушаше хитлера и играше точно по неговите ноти

 

[Klin]

Мајнштајн беше професионален војник кој ги извршуваше задачите на начин како мислеше дека е најдобро а не како шо ќе му наредеше итлер. Затоа и беше сменуван често па и отпуштан, за да го викаат пак назат кога некаде германските армии ќе влезеа во тешка ситуација.
Ромел го слушаше хитлера и играше точно по неговите ноти

И сеа ти поставив прашње не одговори, значи по потреба менуваш гледишта, овде тоа што не се спротивставил на нацистите некого прави лојален, од друга страна, оној кој под принуда извршил самоубиство поради спортивставување на истите тие нацисти, го прави задртен нацист, ти ме тролаш се надевам, не е ова баш полемика.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Мајнштајн беше професионален војник кој ги извршуваше задачите на начин како мислеше дека е најдобро а не како шо ќе му наредеше итлер. Затоа и беше сменуван често па и отпуштан, за да го викаат пак назат кога некаде германските армии ќе влезеа во тешка ситуација.
Ромел го слушаше хитлера и играше точно по неговите ноти

Romel bese zad zagovorot da se trgne hitler i bese primoran da izvrsi samoubistvo zaradi toa, inace Romel za razlika od Majnstajn vojuval vo francija i afrika a ne na istocniot front.

 

[Björn]

Мајнштајн беше професионален војник кој ги извршуваше задачите на начин како мислеше дека е најдобро а не како шо ќе му наредеше итлер. Затоа и беше сменуван често па и отпуштан, за да го викаат пак назат кога некаде германските армии ќе влезеа во тешка ситуација.
Ромел го слушаше хитлера и играше точно по неговите ноти

Манштајн работеше, како никој генерал, под дилетантски опструкции и притисок.

 

[Klin]

Извадок: David Irving - Trail of The Desert Fox

The next morning, October , wearing his favorite brown jacket, the field marshal walks with young Manfred, who is in the gray-blue uniform of a Luftwaffe auxiliary. Rommel muses out loud:
 

“There are two probabilities today. Either nothing happens at all  or this evening I won’t be here.” At the Ulm railroad station, the wreath has already arrived. On the autobahn not many miles away, Burgdorf’s Opel stops briefly near a powerful eight-seater police limousine, packed with plain clothes men. From the snatches of conversation he overhears, Major Ehrnsperger realizes that their commander in chief is in charge of the surveillance of Rommel’s movements. At the villa Rommel changes into his open-collared Afrika Korps tunic. Then he puts on his Pour le Mérite  its blue enamel chipped and dented from the car crash. He sends for Rudolf and says: “Open the garden gate  the two gentlemen will be coming from Berlin.” Promptly at noon the bell jangles. Rudolf opens the front door, and the final act of the drama begins. Wilhelm Burgdorf steps in. He is a large and florid man. His deputy, Ernst Maisel, is somewhat shorter, with a long pointed nose, foxy ears and twinkling eyes. Both are at pains to act courteously and correctly. Everyone salutes. Lucie invites the two to stay for lunch, but Burgdorf declines: “This is official business.” He asks if they can talk privately with Herr Feldmarschall. For no reason at all, a feeling of relief floods over Rommel  the generals note the expression on his face  but all the same, as he takes his visitors through into his ground floor study, he turns to his adjutant and says: “Have that Normandy dossier ready, Aldinger!” General Wilhelm Burgdorf. (..  )
    

Meanwhile, Major Ehrnsperger waits in the garden. He is joined there after a while by Aldinger, and they chat about the Dresden infantry school, where Rommel was the major’s instructor, and about the battle of Monte Kuk in . Rudolf walks out to the little Opel and invites the driver to bring it in through the gate. The driver shakes his head. “That doesn’t make sense,” sniffs Rudolf. The driver coldly retorts, “Kamerad, you do what you’re told and I do what I’m told.” Farther down the lane Rudolf can see another, larger car waiting. In the study Burgdorf looks gravely at his old friend and then speaks. His first words cruelly destroy all Rommel’s expectations. “You have been accused of complicity in the plot on the Führer’s life,” he declares, and hands over the letter from Keitel. Burgdorf reads out the written testimonies of the army officers under Gestapo arrest  Hofacker, Speidel, Stülpnagel. They are damning indictments, particularly Hofacker’s. He hands the testimonies to Rommel: the doomed colonel has described from his death cell how Stülpnagel sent him to see the field marshal with various proposals, and how “after some thought” Rommel agreed to them. The colonel now even claims that as he was leaving the château Rommel called after him, “Tell your gentlemen in Berlin that when the time comes they can count on me.” Burgdorf sees an agonized expression flicker across Rommel’s features. How can Rommel explain that he had no part whatever in the assassination plot  never even knew about it? That “all” he was contemplating was a possible separate armistice with Montgomery, with or without the Führer’s consent? Even to admit that will put him on the scaffold now. His life is forfeit  but perhaps he can at least save Speidel’s. He hesitates and then announces, according to General Maisel’s recollection: “Jawohl. I
 

will take the consequences. Ich habe mich vergessen [I forgot myself].” After this candid admission there can be no going back. He quickly asks Burgdorf, “Does the Führer know about this?” Burgdorf nods. Rommel’s eyes mist over, and Burgdorf asks Maisel to leave them alone for a few minutes. He now states what is not in the letter  the Führer’s promise that if Rommel will commit suicide, then the secret of his treason will be kept from the German people, a fine monument will be erected in his memory and there will be a state funeral. The usual steps, moreover, will not be taken against his next of kin; on the contrary, Lucie will draw a full field marshal’s pension. “This is in recognition of your past services to the Reich.” Still stunned by the unexpectedness of it all, Rommel asks for a few minutes to think things over. He is tired and unsteady. How ironic that he, Erwin Rommel, who has survived bombs, aircraft cannon fire, tank shells and rifle bullets in two world wars, should have to die now because of a failed conspiracy to which he has never been a party, organized by a General Staff to which he did not belong! To this house, the villa at Herrlingen, came emissaries on October , , to bring Rommel Hitler’s verdict. (   ’ )
    

“Can I take your car and drive off quietly somewhere?” he asks Burgdorf. “But I’m not sure I can trust myself to handle a pistol properly.” “We have brought a preparation with us,” Burgdorf softly replies. “It works in three seconds.” He joins Maisel and Ehrnsperger in the garden while Rommel goes upstairs to Lucie’s bedroom. Rommel’s face is an expressionless mask. “In fifteen minutes I will be dead,” he tells Lucie in a distant voice. “On the Führer’s instructions I’ve been given a choice between taking poison or facing the People’s Court. Stülpnagel, Speidel and Hofacker have implicated me in the July twentieth conspiracy. And it seems I was nominated as the new Reich President on the list of Mayor Goerdeler.” He bids Lucie his last farewell. She does not weep  the tears come only later, when she is alone. Neither of them has expected this sudden twist in his fortunes. She feels faint, but bravely returns his last embrace. Afterward he tells Rudolf to fetch his son, and announces with a steady voice what is about to happen. Then he sends Manfred to get Aldinger. Captain Aldinger bounds up the stairs carrying the Normandy dossier. Rommel waves it aside: “I won’t be needing it  they came about something quite different.” Downstairs, the generals are waiting. It has turned into a fine autumn day. By the time he walks down the steps, Rommel has recovered his poise. Rudolf helps him into his topcoat and hands him his cap and field marshal’s baton. Rommel shakes hands with his staff and strides out of the villa for the last time, Manfred loping silently at his side. In his pocket Rommel finds his house keys. He hands them with his wallet to Manfred. “Speidel has told them I was one of the leading men in the July twentieth conspiracy,” he tells his son. “He says
 

that only my injury prevented me from taking a direct part. Stülpnagel said much the same.” They have reached the Opel now. Burgdorf salutes and murmurs: “Herr Feldmarschall!” Manfred marvels at his father’s composure. Rommel puts his foot on the running board, then turns around and says, “Manfred, I think Speidel’s probably had it, too. Take care of Frau Speidel, won’t you?” He climbs into the back of the car with Burgdorf. The driver, an SS master sergeant, lets in the clutch, and the Opel vanishes down the road toward the next village.
The driver was thirty-two-year-old Heinrich Doose. He later told what followed. After  yards Burgdorf ordered him to pull over. “I had to get out,” he said, “and General Maisel walked on with me up the road for some distance. After a while, about five or ten minutes, Burgdorf called us back to the car. I saw Rommel sitting in the back, obviously dying. He was unconscious, slumped down and sobbing  not a death rattle or groaning, but sobbing. His cap had fallen off. I sat him upright and put his cap back on again.”

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Предговор:Rommel Leadership Lessons from the Desert Fox Ω
Charles Messenger

NO FOREIGN GENERAL HAS EVER QUITE INSPIRED AS much passion, curiosity, and respect among Americans as German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. His World War I experiences are the subject of serious study, his leadership in the Axis campaigns in North Africa was almost the stuff of legend, and his self-inflicted death by cyanide poisoning after a failed assassination plot against Hitler has been viewed as the essence of human tragedy. Decades after his death his son, then mayor of the German city of Stuttgart, received the utmost admiration and respect from the American forces and leaders stationed in Germany. Charles Messenger’s intense, fast-moving biography places Rommel’s character, service, and lifetime of military achievements in perspective. But for all the demythologizing of his wartime record, Rommel’s stature still casts an enormous shadow across contemporary military studies. Born in 1891 into an average middle-class family in what is today southern Germany, Rommel showed an early aptitude for mathematics and an interest in the outdoors. Given the
01 rommel text:01 lemay fm try2 4/16/09 4:14 PM Page vii
strong nationalist feelings of the time, it was probably natural to join the Army and become an officer—just like his father, who encouraged him to follow this path. As a young officer on the eve of World War I he strived for combat service, and he soon found it. Moving quickly through the ranks from platoon leader to commanding a battalion, he found himself in action against the French, and then later with the Germans and Austrians against first the Romanians and then the Italians. Rommel proved quickly to be a charismatic and highly effective leader. He established a rapport with his troops, won their respect by sharing in their hardships, and was a diligent student of the new tactics and techniques brought about by the use of the machine gun and rapid-fire artillery in battle. By the later years of the war he proved himself to be an attack specialist, massing pinpoint fires, bypassing enemy strongpoints, and leading from the front to acquire the most up-to-date information and assessment. He was young, physically fit, daring, and lucky. By Christmas, 1917, he had won Prussia’s highest decoration, the Pour Le Mérite. It was these experiences that formed the basis for his professional teaching and his book, Infantry Attacks, written in the 1930s, which did much to shape German military training prior to World War II and even American military thought well into the 1990s. It was Rommel’s combination of fire— massed and pinpointed to suppress and distract enemy forces—and daring maneuver to take advantage of the effects of that fire that provided the basis for much of the renaissance of American military thought in the post-Vietnam period. For at a time when much of the military experiences of both German and Allied officers had been based on surviving the risks and hardship of massed, trench warfare on the Western Front, Rommel taught the essence of maneuver.
viii Ω ROMMEL
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FOREWORD Ω ix
Indeed, decades after historians commented about how much more effective World War II German units were, manfor-man, than most of their American adversaries, the American Army went back and seriously studied Rommel’s lessons. And the principles of leading from the front, operating well-forward with a small command group, and personally directing the battle became ingrained in the American officer corps through repeated practice at the U.S. Army’s National Training Center located in the high Mojave desert of southern California. Had Rommel retired as a middle-aged former battalion commander in the 1930s, we might never have paid heed to his invaluable lessons. But, in fact, he did not retire; rather, through a combination of skill, personality, and selfp romotion, he won the attention of Germany’s new leader, Adolf Hitler. And, though he wasn’t a member of the Prussian officer class and was no General Staff “insider,” he managed through personal relationships to advance himself and win command positions of increased responsibility. He missed out on the German Blitzkrieg into Poland in 1939, but he saw the effects. And with his profound personal experience and penetrating understanding of battle, his toughest task was to gain acceptance into the upper ranks of German commanders. His connections with Hitler did the trick; he received command of the soon-to-be-famous 7th Panzer Division and led it in the 1940 breakthrough into France. Here he quickly seized the advantage of the German Stuka in close air support, right in front of his lead elements, and pushed his men and the equipment to the breaking point. In his second war he again earned a solid reputation, and even public adulation, as an attack specialist. Rewarded with a larger command in North Africa, he found himself in a difficult command environment working with the Italians and a long way from easy access to Hitler.
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And it was here, where he made his greatest reputation as the feared “Desert Fox,” that he also found the limits to his straight-ahead, forceful command style. Hamstrung by limited logistic support, dealing with envious, mistrustful superiors, deprived of air superiority and usually lacking even close air support, Rommel proved himself again a daring lion on the attack, but, now in middle age, the arduous, punishing style impacted his health and personality. And, as many of us suspect, he also discovered that adversity in war is an altogether different test of leadership than pushing an offensive. In North Africa, he succeeded in pushing the British forces almost to the Nile, and further burnishing his already fearsome public and professional reputation, but in the end his forces were made to retreat two thousand miles and his beloved Deutsches Afrika Korps was, ultimately, soundly defeated by the combined British and American forces in Tunisia in 1943. In his last major duty, Rommel, now a Field Marshal, was second-in-command in the West, supervised the construction of Germany’s “Atlantic Wall” along the English Channel and French coastlines, and was seriously injured in his staff car during the Normandy invasion. He was closely affiliated with the Nazi Party and, along with others of the Wehrmacht, took a personal oath to Hitler. Yet, subsequently, he was peripherally implicated in the plot against Hitler’s life and, given the choice of trial or suicide, he spared his family the shame of a public trial by taking the cyanide. Rommel’s military reputation, though, has lived on, and still sets the standard for a style of daring, charismatic leadership to which most officers aspire, especially the up and coming leaders of his former adversaries.
—General Wesley K. Clark

 

[Let 3]

Romel bese zad zagovorot da se trgne hitler i bese primoran da izvrsi samoubistvo zaradi toa, inace Romel za razlika od Majnstajn vojuval vo francija i afrika a ne na istocniot front.

то се само шпекулации и муабети, ни една истрага ни доказ не го поврзуваат ромел со заговорот, ромел беше фасциниран од хитлер и му беше верен

 

[Klin]

то се само шпекулации и муабети, ни една истрага ни доказ не го поврзуваат ромел со заговорот, ромел беше фасциниран од хитлер и му беше верен

Ова со Мајнштајн ко праевте муабет после војната?

 

[Let 3]

Ова со Мајнштајн ко праевте муабет после војната?

не се плаши од читање и учење историја

 

[Ron Burgundy]

то се само шпекулации и муабети, ни една истрага ни доказ не го поврзуваат ромел со заговорот, ромел беше фасциниран од хитлер и му беше верен

Zosto vo toj slucaj Rommel izvrsi samoubistvo?